Can science explain the scientist?

Posted: September 10, 2010 by tallbloke in solar system dynamics

This post is about the current limits of knowledge concerning ourselves as living beings, and the ways the inventive human mind has attempted to transcend the percieved degree of ignorance we labour under.

Fibroblast connective tissue cell

History:
We humans evolved/acquired speech and the ability to handle abstract concepts.
We developed ritual and spi-ritual procedures to extend consciousness ‘beyond the body’.
We developed metaphysics to explain the unexplained.
We developed logical constructs to order and categorize experience.
We developed empirical investigation to inform and confirm theory.
We developed instrumentation to measure and investigate micro and macroscopic phenomena.

A schism developed between direct cognition of self through introspection (spiritual awareness) and the empirical examination of the material body leading to the mind-brain identity theory (materialist philosophy).

Realisation dawned that the categories provided by the periodic table of elements and the knowledge of their interactions (inorganic chemistry) and the concommitant theory of  matter-energy (sub-atomic physics) are insufficiently developed to explain the activity of living biota (organic chemistry). This has spawned new disciplines which try to explain the extended capability of living entities to intereact with their environment, one example is the field of epigenetics.

Outside of mainstream science there are other approaches to understanding of self, others, life and cosmos; Alchemy, orgone energy theory, Jungian psychology, alternative medecine, the practice of meditation, yoga, T’ai Chi etc. These tend to follow a more holistic paradigm, which escape the Cartesian dualism of seperate mind and body through the presumption of wholeness and the implicate order (Bohm). Others are re-evaluating classical science and discovering anomalies, lacunae and developing alternative re-formulations of classical theory.

A new appreciation of the degree to which humans formulate the ‘reality’ of the cosmos which surrounds them through consensus first elucidated by Plato in his analogy of the men round the fire in the cave has been brought into sharp relief by the study of the behaviour of scientists in institutional organisations (Polyani, Kuhn, Lakatos, feyerabend), and more recently by the climate debate.

New insights into the fundamental role of electrical energy at all levels in the cosmos from the biggest  cosmological scale structures to the smallest biota open a wide field of new investigation. Recent comments on other threads from Richard Holle, Adolfo Giurfa, Zeke and others can be pulled together here for a round-table barnstorming session.

Bring it on. :)

Comments
  1. Ulric Lyons says:

    I have been following my Father in law put this together over many years, I`m sure he would appreciate any feedback..

    http://globalsentience.com/

  2. Tenuc says:

    Great thread, TB, and although it is too early for my brain to be in top gear, I’ll add my first thoughts.

    1) From thermodynamics, the second law of entropy was seen as a ‘law of disorder’ and in a finite cosmos, when all work had been done the end result, after billions of years, would be the ‘heat death of the universe’.

    A major revolution in the last decade by some is that a “process of max entropy production” or “MEP” exists and with it comes an expanded view of thermodynamics showing that the spontaneous production of order from disorder is the expected consequence of simple basic physics.

    Alan Turing’s ‘spotted cows’ paper was perhaps the first example of using mathematics to show how a huge range of patterns could emerge spontaneously from chaos.

    Turing’s work has been further refined by Prof. James Murry, online screen-show here:-

    http://www.authorstream.com/Presentation/Denise-37681-Turing-Patterns-Animal-Coat-Coats-Alan-1912-1954-James-Murray-author-in-as-Entertainment-ppt-powerpoint/

    2) The scientific method is often confounded by observations of events where the position of the observer in the reference frame is not fully understood. This important from the perspective of the physical location of the observer and the mental position, with all the baggage of dogma and ones personal view of ‘reality’.

    Several weeks reading available on the link below OBSERVER PHYSICS, A NEW PARADIGM
    by Douglass A. White, Ph.D, which tries to understand the role of the observer and redefine some of the standard models in science.

    3) My own view is that the biosphere is a self organising structure created and sustained by the energy from the sun. and the non-linear laws which create order out of chaos. It is able to exist over long periods of time through a cycle of birth, experience and death with the DNA at it’s core developing ever more complex structures to ensure it can adapt to changes in energy levels form our variable star, the sun. Humans are currently the most adaptable species on the planet, and our ability to be able to think abstract thoughts is a significant aid to our long-term survival. However, we are still only a small part of the total biosphere, and even the smallest microbe has it’s part to play in continuing the success of the connected whole.

    If the above has an element of truth, it leads to some interesting thoughts about religion, the ecosystem and the future of this tiny ball of rock which we call home.

  3. Tenuc says:

    Doh! Sorry, forgot the link to Observer Physics – said it was too early!

    http://www.dpedtech.com/OPdex.htm

  4. johnnythelowery says:

    Hawkings, while meditating on the possibility of a unified theory of himself stumbled across, from out of the Ether, the muliti-verse, Super-symmetric, Infinity intrinsic simplified equation of….it came to him in it’s complete form……by revelation

    U = 0

  5. Ulric Lyons says:

    Check out this section Tallbloke;

    http://www.blazelabs.com/f-g-intro.asp

    I came to similar conclusions about gravity being repulsion between space and matter, funnily enough by thinking through what Ashtyn Smith has proposed.

    http://globalsentience.com/

    I think there is an essentially geometric tension or incongruity in the relationship that forces things to be on the move perpetually, and that entropy is impossible.

  6. tallbloke says:

    johnnythelowery says:
    September 10, 2010 at 12:08 pm (Edit)

    Hawkings, while meditating on the possibility of a unified theory of himself stumbled across, from out of the Ether, the muliti-verse, Super-symmetric, Infinity intrinsic simplified equation of….it came to him in it’s complete form……by revelation

    U = 0

    Interestingly, I came to the opposite conclusion, that U=1 :)
    In fact, it makes no difference once all the constants have dropped out of the unified equation, all you are left with is:
    Sigma (everything) equals 1, or 0, or everything, or nothing.
    Beyond duality, there is no differentiation between one and zero, the perciever and the percieved. Metaphysically, I chose 1 rather than zero, because the act of perception itself means something is going on rather than nothing. I always thought Hawking was a nihilist. ;)

    If that is the answer, and it doesn’t get us any further forward, then we need to understand the question better.

  7. tallbloke says:

    Ulric Lyons says:
    September 10, 2010 at 9:11 am (Edit)

    I have been following my Father in law put this together over many years, I`m sure he would appreciate any feedback..

    http://globalsentience.com

    Well, yes, empty space is a concept I frequently rib Leif about. Thanks for the link, looks interesting, I’ll take a read.

  8. tallbloke says:

    Tenuc says:
    September 10, 2010 at 9:38 am (Edit)

    However, we are still only a small part of the total biosphere, and even the smallest microbe has it’s part to play in continuing the success of the connected whole.

    Individual biota might be small, but given you could fit the whole of huimanity on the Isle of Wight shoulder to shoulder (30miles x 30 miles is all you need) I suspect the most primitive of monocellular organisms actually have the biggest influence on out atmosphere and climate through shear weight of numbers.

    I keep recommending James Lovelock’s original book ‘Gaia, a new look at life on Earth’ to people. It seems to be unfashionable among climate skeptics to take notice of Lovelock, but this book contains the basis for understanding the effect of life on the planetary atmosphere and climate, and the reason why the Earth’s temperature has remained relatively stable while the sun’s output has risen by 25% during the last three billion years. It is, quite simply, a ‘must read’.

  9. That image it is strikingly similar to:
    Icosahedral super water cluster of 1820 H2O molecules

    http://www.soulsofdistortion.nl/water4.html

  10. Ulric Lyons says:
    September 10, 2010 at 9:11 am
    All I could tell him is the following: “As above, so below”
    My father in law, who passed away a few years ago was looking for the quadrature of the circle, and now we know, that a circle is an abstraction and a circle moves on.
    As there are forces applied to the vertices of the inscribed equilateral triangle to make it move ahead as the three gaps or intervals in the octave when it is played by the fingers of the mover.

  11. We are in need of rediscovering a (as it is called today) new unified field theory, to discover once more what it is written and told. We do not need to invent anything new but we must understand that the LAW we are looking for, it is and it was always out there. Nobody conspired against its knowledge, instead, we rejected its simplicity. It seems that we need to entangled in strings or sick with curved spaces or doomed by being sucked in a black hole or haunted by ghostly anti-matter or worse, interred under dark matter.
    I said it before: Pitagoras to know the lwas of the universe only needed a humble monochord.
    Richar Holle’s yesterday post In Energy…makes a remarkable synthesis we must reread.
    The law of seven or law of the octave is the supreme law. Miles Mathis is very close to it, as he recently discovered that the tangent to the circle is equal to a given arc when this arc equals 1/8th of the circumference.

  12. This is why chemicals react always in certain proportions, ratios, 3::2, 2::3, 2::1. Thus the table of elements was found by Dimitri Mendeleiev. Though it is known that actual atomic weights do not include its EMF, rendering it approximate but not exact.
    The real mechanics of the universe will occupy a single sheet of paper.
    Though I have said, before, that no one opposes to knowledge but it is denied by each of us, it is true, also, that from the beginning it was politically inconvenient that “gnosis” thing for the populace, as “intermediation” of power and profit was always “highly recommendable”. It took considerable force starting with the “Illustration” where until the last remnants of knowledge should be removed. You know it, up to the system of measures was replaced by such a stupidity of the metric system and its never accepted 400 degrees circle. The current changes occurring in the world open the possibility for the reestablishment of real reason, of the possibility of a real all inclusive science/ philosophy of physis (nature), a real physics.

  13. The real DANGER agnostics fear is the realization, once again, in the history of the human kind, of the laws governing the whole cosmos, because of its moral implications. We must not forget there are always two forces in play: Ours is to find and follow the light of knowledge.

  14. Tenuc says:
    September 10, 2010 at 9:38 am :
    Believe me! there is not chaos!, we should ask ourselves: Am I chaotic?, that’s a good start.
    “Know thyself” as it was written on the Oracle of Delphi.

  15. In the beginning, there were all of the minerals in the seas, the tectonic forces shoving the surface around in response to changes in subsurface fluidity, and turbulence due to the rapid separation of the densities of the still melting subducted materials.

    The declination and phase movements of the moon, churns the core contents of the Earth, like the dross in a gold pan, as the counter balance around the barycenter of the two, pulses tidal heating, in phase with the solar inductive heating that keeps the core molten.

    Gradual separation by raising compounds above and then slowly lowering the temperatures below their melting point, through many heat/cool cycles, was the basic form of alchemy workings that allowed them to learn about basic chemistry.

    When life first formed there were all of the basic constituents needed, with the gradual background ion shifts generated as the weather fronts followed the lunar tidal mixing of the atmosphere, that came in waves in all of the common periods still found in tidal dynamics.

    Ions were assisted and inhibited as the background static charge values responded to the polarization shifts in the atmosphere and the rain fall produced, these basic underlying pulses of ion flux were able to help assimilate compounds in waves, until something called “life” found a way to control these forces internally, and self regulate their own growth.

    As more complicated compounds were formed, and stuff fell into the atmosphere from deep space, viral dna segments can together to combine to form more complex life forms to take advantage of opportunities, at some point whole micro critters were able to colonize others to form symbiotic relationships, and larger life forms began to show up.

    Today many of the cellular structures in own differentiated organs, are but the results of these cohabiting for good of all evolutionary steps. Even today when new viral dna is encountered it becomes invested into every strand of dna or rna that it can fit into before the “fever subsides” and we are well again.

    Evolution is a continuous on going process, one of the most adaptive assets that humans have is cognitive perception of basic shapes and forms that by extension allows people to think ahead to possible outcomes based on past histories.

    People are the product of the history of the growth of the biomass on this earth, as is everything that is still able to cling to life, ahead of extinction if it’s niche runs out before it adapts.

    Inductive reasoning, creative thoughts, that become visionary into possible outcomes, to try new ideas to test these hypothesis, until understanding of the underlying process allows more complex questions and answers, that only lead to more interesting and better questions, the sharing of new ideas helps spread this growth through out the population.

    Every day people are born with new skill enhancements that are hard to see, creating more options in creativity by virtue of increased reasoning, or perceptive abilities, pattern recognition abilities, communication skills for making their imagination visible to others.

    So many exchanges of information in so little time compared to hand written correspondence, hand carried by messengers, how can we not make rapid progress?

    We are indeed fortunate to live in an era where the pecking on so many key boards, are readable world wide in the morning, to absorb with breakfast coffee and fresh roll.

  16. Richard Holle says:
    September 10, 2010 at 6:06 pm
    That “fresh roll” made me more effect now than the moon’s tides. BTW , as for the geological findings, the moon seems to have been born from the earth.

  17. A book which should be read, if we are a little open minded, is P.D.Ouspensky “Fragments of an Unknown Teaching”, which you candownload it from:

    http://www.giurfa.com/fragments.pdf

    Where you can find the Law of the Octave,etc. (specially beginning with chapter 9)

  18. Sorry, that was in spanish, the english version you can find it here:

    http://www.scribd.com/doc/3968188/In-Search-of-the-Miraculous-OUSPENSKY

  19. vukcevic says:

    OT
    Hi Rog
    Posted this updated link

    http://www.vukcevic.talktalk.net/LFC20.htm

    on WUWT as a response to Adolfo’s comment.

  20. I have included in my webpage a link to this blog.

    [reply] Thanks! I’ll return the favour.

  21. DirkH says:

    alpha, the fine structure constant, seems to vary slightly spatially:

    http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn19429-laws-of-physics-may-change-across-the-universe.html

  22. DirkH says:

    Epigenetics – a persistent memory. In the mothers womb, switches in the genome (the methylation pattern) are set to influence the phenotype / the development of the offspring. How does a species acquire the knowledge when to switch on or off which gene? Presumably through evolution.

    This could explain why humans get taller generation after generation when nutrition is good. I am taller than my father was; my kid is taller than me. Yet there was no shortage of food for the last 3 generations at least. Maybe the methylation pattern gets set more and more towards an expectation of a good supply of food.

    How tall will the Chinese be in 100 years?
    Zheng He was a rather big guy, and the Chinese Empire was at the zenith of its power.
    “Zheng He himself was seven feet tall with a waste five feet in circumference, and a voice as loud as a huge bell.”

    http://www.buzzle.com/editorials/8-22-2005-75259.asp

    For the Malthusians (i know we don’t have any here, but it’s fun to think about it): To alleviate the problems that come with overpopulation, we could try to put ourselves on a calorie-restricted diet before reproducing; this way we might be able to reverse the generational growth and make humans shrink with every generation. The Voluntary Human Shrinkage Movement, so to speak. (“Voluntary” to be understood like the “Democratic” in “German Democratic Republic”, of course ;-) )

  23. To the question above Can science explain the scientist? we could say:
    a)The Mendeleev Table of the elements was found following the musical octave.
    b)Note Frequency (Hz) Wavelength (cm)
    C0 16.35 2100.
    C#0/Db0 17.32 1990.
    D0 18.35 1870.
    D#0/Eb0 19.45 1770.
    E0 20.60 1670.
    F0 21.83 1580.
    F#0/Gb0 23.12 1490.
    G0 24.50 1400.
    G#0/Ab0 25.96 1320.
    A0 27.50 1250.
    A#0/Bb0 29.14 1180.
    B0 30.87 1110.
    C1 32.70 1050.
    c) Everybody accepts that it shows an scale of materialitu, from the lighter Hydrogen to the heavier Uranium.
    d)The lighter elements, the more energetic, the higher its “pitch”(frequency) the smaller its wave length; the heavier the less energetic, the lower its pitch, the longer its wave length. Agree?
    e)We can extrapolate both ways, to the lightest and to the heavier. There must be analogies.
    f)If we call wave length a diameter or size then the bigger the size the heavier the “particle”. So we could find an “Hydrogen”or else say an “electron” corresponding to the table of elements we use or from one of the extrapolations we could do.
    g)We do not need to seek for new particles as we have the “key” to perfectly find its characteristics, which should be the same but in other place of the universal “keyboard”
    In the new mechanics of a “unified field”, as the one presented by Miles Mathis, ia very important fact is shown: The lenght of the tangent to the circle equals the arc when this arc is equal to 1/8th of the circle length. This means that there is a proportion between the circle or “particle” and its maximum vector (the tangent). It means, also that the mechanics of forces operating on a given particle can originate at each 1/8th-
    He also proposes the “stacking of spins” following the laws or lmitations of the gyroscope.
    This “stacking of spins” is the same as the distribution of the frequencies in the octave scale.

  24. P.G. Sharrow says:

    Adolfo Giurfa ; at some point I should investigate your ” music of the spheres” more fully. God does not use complex ways to do things, only simple ways in muliplecities. Understand the simple and the rest is easy.

    Ether that or I’m too dumb to understand complex concepts. ;-) pg

  25. P.G. Sharrow says:
    September 13, 2010 at 5:03 am
    Though you may revisit from chapter 9 on of:

    http://www.giurfa.com/fragmentsof.pdf

  26. johnnythelowery says:

    IT”S AS IF ___________________(Animal) IS AN EXPERT IN ___________________
    (BIOLOGICAL TECHNOLOGY)!!!!
    How many times have i read this, or similar, expressions of incredulity from Biologists in ‘ScienceDaily’ posts. They come across, say, the Peacock feather, devoid of pigment,
    manipulating Quantum light offset in opaque tubules on it’s wing giving off it’s brilliant color (Which is why the Peacock likes to have the sun directly behind you before it opens it’s feathers). Good job Biologists are not prosecutors, otherwise, no one would get convicted of a crime. The Peacock is absolutley an expert on Quantum Color offset
    and Evolution is a Joke. It’s a never ending source of hilarity as Scientists will think, believe, say, anything for evolution to explain it. NO hypothesis too convuluted….as long as it’s not….(You know who!).

  27. Zeke the Sneak says:

    “Realisation dawned that the categories provided by the periodic table of elements and the knowledge of their interactions (inorganic chemistry) and the concommitant theory of matter-energy (sub-atomic physics) are insufficiently developed to explain the activity of living biota (organic chemistry).”

    “This has spawned new disciplines which try to explain the extended capability of living entities to intereact with their environment, one example is the field of epigenetics.”

    That is very nicely put. From the epigenome project website “These ‘genome projects’ have shown that although humans may have a much bigger genome than less complex organisms, we do not have that many more protein coding genes. For example, the 140 million base pair (Mb) long genome of the fruit fly contains ~17,000 genes. The human genome is 21x larger (3000Mb), but still contains only ~ 40,000 genes. This suggests that “We are more than just the sum of our genes”, and that biological complexity depends less on gene number, and more on how those genes are used (expressed), which is largely due to epigenetic mechanisms.”

    One can only stop and wonder at the difference this kind of data could have made if it had not come long after the main theoretical framework for life on earth had been agreed on. Suppose there had been an electron microscope in the mid 1800’s, and the complexity of the cell and its incredible inner workings was understood in Darwin’s day? Suppose we could look at the stars and nebula in all the em frequencies we see them in now before the BB/pleanetary accretion were agreed upon? And likewise, suppose we could see the extraordinary interlocking functions of the brain’s components, as well as its molecular and cellular sophistication, before it was agreed that new layers were simply added to reptilian and mammalian brains?

    But we are stuck, science in every area is stuck, in old paradigms. Geology, biology, astronomy, solar physics, everything is frozen. (Well, perhaps brain science is still in its “heroic” age, with hot debates and arguments and new discoveries being made nearly daily.)

    So to the question, “Can science expain the scientist?” I think that Theodore Andrea Cook has said it best:

    “…for what we describe as a ‘rule’ in science or a ‘Law’ in Nature, is in reality the mere expression in shorthand, of our knowledge at the moment concerning certain phenomena which we have been able to observe.

    To carp at a Law because it does not explain everything, would be a grave error in outlook and understanding; for Laws do not explain; they describe what happens, and their description should be both helpful and suggestive.

    But they are the instruments of science, not its aim.

    The really important thing is not the ‘rule’ or ‘Law’ itself which merely records the investigations of the past.

    It is the exception; for this brings the sudden appreciation of facts hitherto unknown, and of their relation to ourselves, which leads us to the discovery of the future, to higher worlds of life and thought than we ever had realized before.”

    In nearly every area of science, the ‘Law’ has become its aim, and exceptions, no matter how remarkable, are carefully hidden and explained away in order to maintain the ‘Law.’

  28. Zeke the Sneak says:

    At least we can learn a lesson and gain a little wisdom for our own lives from the mistakes of science.

    Wait and see. We have limited data and should not weave fanciful tales to explain what we do not yet understand. There are times when this is perhaps the most scientific, and the most spiritual, position to take.

    And it works wonderfully with brain science as well. Making new observations and noticing exceptions must be a goal for us, because the neurones that have fired together before will be more likely to repeat and strengthen their electrical connections. To make new neuronal connections rather than observe what we expect requires a different understanding and use of the brain.

  29. DirkH says:

    Zeke the Sneak says:
    September 13, 2010 at 6:02 pm
    “For example, the 140 million base pair (Mb) long genome of the fruit fly contains ~17,000 genes. The human genome is 21x larger (3000Mb), but still contains only ~ 40,000 genes. This suggests that “We are more than just the sum of our genes”, and that biological complexity depends less on gene number, and more on how those genes are used (expressed), which is largely due to epigenetic mechanisms.”

    Zeke, there are some tricks that mammals use to get along with a relatively simple genome. We keep our body temperature constant; this reduces the complexity of our biochemistry vastly. Frogs, for instance, use different enzymes for the same purpose depending on the outside temperature. So they need to be able to synthesize all the varieties they need, where a mammal gets along with one enzyme. So they need more genetic code. We also keep the salinity of our body fluids constant to simplify the chemistry. So we do more with less.

  30. Any of those gigantic molecules can be dissolved with an alkali at pH=>8 and they reassemble at pH=4,5. How do they get it? .
    Do it with 50 grams of soybean cake. When reassembled the protein “sings” by expelling its characteristic odor. It is something worth of witnessing.

  31. …precisely at the intervals (gaps) of the pH octave, or at the calculus’ critical points, or at what the EU guys call it, the “double layers” , or where Dr.S sees the “reconnections” exploding….
    It is our right to fool ourselves and to get lost in an inextricable jungle of complicated matters or to humbly surrender before simplicity.

  32. Zeke the Sneak says:

    DirkH says, “…there are some tricks that mammals use to get along with a relatively simple genome. We keep our body temperature constant; this reduces the complexity of our biochemistry vastly. Frogs, for instance, use different enzymes for the same purpose depending on the outside temperature. So they need to be able to synthesize all the varieties they need, where a mammal gets along with one enzyme….”

    Thanks DirkH. I do not know much about epigenetics, but at least it could go to the broader point about science being unable to progress beyond the theories of what, the 1920’s?

    It is maintained that DNA must evolve by a random mutational process ONLY, and that there isn’t really any give and take with the environment. Of course, you can have different genes expressed or not in different situations, but the idea that genes can be altered by something in the environment, as I understand it, will not be tolerated.

    Instead, what I see is a crack of light. We potentially may have something in DNA that is in a lively conversation with life and its fellow beings, and electrically, with its environment.

    I do not know as much about genomes as others here, so I will be quiet. But a round of scrumpy for anyone who wants to talk more about frogs/amphibians/metamorphosis! :D

  33. johnnythelowery says:

    How many seemingly impossible things have to be discovered before Scientists go: “you know, don’t tell anyone, but there really is something really freakin weired going on!”
    Answer: Couple of million

    ‘….. “But if the double helix didn’t fold further, the genome in each cell would be two meters long. Scientists have not really understood how the double helix folds to fit into the nucleus of a human cell, which is only about a hundredth of a millimeter in diameter. This new approach enabled us to probe exactly that question.”
    The researchers report two striking findings. First, the human genome is organized into two separate compartments, keeping active genes separate and accessible while sequestering unused DNA in a denser storage compartment. Chromosomes snake in and out of the two compartments repeatedly as their DNA alternates between active, gene-rich and inactive, gene-poor stretches. “Cells cleverly separate the most active genes into their own special neighborhood, to make it easier for proteins and other regulators to reach them,” says Job Dekker, associate professor of biochemistry and molecular pharmacology at UMass Medical School and a senior author of the Science paper.
    Second, at a finer scale, the genome adopts an unusual organization known in mathematics as a “fractal.” The specific architecture the scientists found, called a “fractal globule,” enables the cell to pack DNA incredibly tightly — the information density in the nucleus is trillions of times higher than on a computer chip…..’
    Sciencedaily- Fractals as storage technique

  34. Gnomish says:

    Can science explain the scientist?
    If not, he’s got no chance, eh.
    Are you seeking to define epistemology? Dictionary did that.
    Are you seeking to define human nature? Human nature is to define himself.
    Are you seeking to define morality? Morality is the science of choice.
    Are you seeking to define good and evil? Good is that which furthers the life of an entity qua its nature. Evil is that which contradicts it. The question of value only applies to living things because nothing else has a choice – the choice – of existence or death.
    Are you seeking to define virtue? Virtue is the means by which a living thing obtains of maintains a value.

    Are you seeking to define logic? Logic is the act of non-contradictory identification.
    Are you seeking to define truth? Truth is that which is never contradicted within the context it’s defined.
    The definition of a word is that it has a definition- therefore, if you can’t define an utterance, it is not even speaking – it’s barking or something – semiotics, not true speech. Ponder this Ed Gruberman!
    How does somebody get to call himself a human being if he can’t even explain what defines one? How does a person presume to judge if he can not define a standard of values?

  35. johnnythelowery says:

    Gnomish: It’s funny you should ask these questions. I was watching Richard Dawkins ‘Faith School’ program (youtube) and was surprised to hear(in 2 of 4) that evolution doesn’t teach that we evolved from Monkeys, but that we are Monkeys, and that we evolved from a common ancestor. Hmmm. When did that Paradigm shift happen. No need for the missing link. I thought we were Humans. Anyway, Lets talk about our Scientist Friend: He has a cervical spine that enters the skull at the base. Different from Monkeys and apes. He has a common ancestor will all humanity, an Eve, based on Mitochondria (?), apparently hailing frmo an area near Kenya/Somalia area. He shares a massive amount of DNA with Monkeys But he also shares things with Sea Sponges. What else….

  36. Gnomish says:

    he learns the same way every other chordate does – by association.
    he acquires habits based on reinforcement.
    learning is a habit
    critical thinking is a habit.
    he gets good at whatever he practices
    he becomes whatever he does.

    Dawkins wasn’t first to note the parallels between psychoepistemological principles and the principles of evolution- recording, reproduction, adaptation (mutation)- nor the first to remark that the gold standard of evolution ‘survival of the fit’ (competition is not necessary) is analogous to ‘persistence of the truth’ and that falsification is the cause of extinction of either. He did a great job of expostulation, though.

  37. Gnomish says:

    Mr. Tallbloke –
    may I submit a lengthy essay expostulating on epistemology, evolution and the mystery of mysteries? (it would be a wall of text – but you could edit or reject it if it doesn’t meet specs)

    [reply] Go for it, you have email.

  38. johnnythelowery says:

    Our Scientist friend has an articulated thumb. A cervical spine that enters at the bottom of his skull. The information in the nucleus of every cell of this Scientist is packed a Trillion times denser than on a computer chip. What a clever guy. He is also Concious( a possible Quantum process–believed by Roger Penrose). He didn’t get there by the usual ‘Evolution by fitness’. Because he’s packed with Gene Regulatory Networks which decided his body plan and arrested any deviation. Infact, there hasn’t been any body type ‘evolution’ since the pre-cambrian age because of Gene Regulatory Networks. (we await Dawkins next tome about pre-Cambrian…something or other). And the Pre-cambrian body plans didn’t get to be the way there were by traditional Darwininan processes….as there wasn’t enough time (Thank you Stephen Jay Gould (RIP)). They got there by punctuated equilibriam you see which makes the hole in evolution dissappear again. There is something weired about this Scientist. No doubt about it.

  39. Gnomish says:

    what if a a neanderthal with a 20W brain had a kid with a few more blood vessels – so he could overclock his wetware to 25W without cooking it?

    what if some individual’s neurons make slightly more economical synapses that get a bigger bang for the buck out of the neurotransmitters?

    what if having a few teeth fewer kept some caveperson’s teeth cleaner so she lived long enough to make an extra baby?

    tiny things can add up.

    language is not a big stretch from semiotics – but it’s the difference between simian and scientist.

  40. tallbloke says:

    Gnomish says:
    September 14, 2010 at 1:48 am
    The definition of a word is that it has a definition- therefore, if you can’t define an utterance, it is not even speaking – it’s barking or something – semiotics, not true speech. Ponder this Ed Gruberman!

    My philosophy of mind tutor kindly explained to me that the exercise of the philosophy of language was a bit like going to a good restaurant; and eating the menu.

    He was probably just apeing someone else though. :)

  41. tallbloke says:

    Gnomish says:
    September 14, 2010 at 4:39 am
    language is not a big stretch from semiotics – but it’s the difference between simian and scientist.

    Some believe the ability to articulate a larger variety of sounds, making complex language possible, is down to the chance development of a small pharyngial bone in our throats.

    Or did the voice box develop because of our efforts to coax more complex sounds from it? Wittgenstein’s private language argument is riddled with bad logic IMO, but it’s certainly interesting to ponder these questions. Some people have a greater ability to visualise things than others. Logic and language seem to overshadow and diminish that ability. Perhaps a healthy mind is one which doesn’t overemphasize one mode of thought at the expense of others.

  42. Gnomish says:

    heh. i’d have him eat his words in a hot flash.

    if the menu were as fun as the OED I might forget about food!

  43. Gnomish says:

    Oh- allow me to share another of the gods in my pantheon- if you love linguistics, here’s mr faberge, king sejong:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hangul <-thing of beauty!
    Hangul was designed so that even a commoner could learn to read and write; the Haerye says "A wise man can acquaint himself with them before the morning is over; a stupid man can learn them in the space of ten days."
    a child, of course, could learn to read in a day.
    and you can pronounce it as it was originallly pronounced 500 years later.

  44. DirkH says:

    Zeke the Sneak says:
    September 14, 2010 at 12:43 am
    “[…]It is maintained that DNA must evolve by a random mutational process ONLY, and that there isn’t really any give and take with the environment. Of course, you can have different genes expressed or not in different situations, but the idea that genes can be altered by something in the environment, as I understand it, will not be tolerated.”

    The mutability of the genome is controlled by enzymatic means; there are very radiation-hardened multi-cellular organisms like the tardygrades that can repair huge amounts of damage to the DNA. Mammals do it to a much lesser extent. But an interesting fact is our capability of somatic hypermutation. When you catch a new infection unknown to your immune system, some white blood cells – lymphocytes – will carry pieces of the infectant to the lymph nodes. A process called somatic hypermutation begins there; lymphocytes multiply and deliberately mutate an area of their genome that produces antibodies. The lymphocyte that finally makes a matching antibody for the infectant gets to multiply, and now your immune system can mass-produce the antibody. Usually takes about 3 days. It’s an evolution in the box.

    So, mechanisms that alter the genome – increasing the mutability drastically and very targeted – do exist in our own bodies. Some researcher used this mechanism to optimize fluorescent proteins for defined wavelengths of light IIRC – sorry, i have no link. It was on the german innovationsreport some time ago.
    English version of the innovationsreport (“innovation report”):

    http://www.innovations-report.com/

  45. DirkH says:
    September 14, 2010 at 4:19 pm
    So, mechanisms that alter the genome – increasing the mutability drastically and very targeted – do exist in our own bodies
    Good guys!, some call them Angels.

  46. As they struggle for the preservation of the greater being they live in.

  47. DirkH says:

    Adolfo Giurfa says:
    September 14, 2010 at 4:52 pm
    “Good guys!, some call them Angels.”

    A religious person could postulate that the creator has a hand in this. Personally, i defer judgment in lack of experimental data … ;-)

  48. It is only a matter of semantics. However if you try to avoid the death of society by malthusians, for example, you would be fulfilling a similar role: That of preserving your habitat and the rules or laws you think keep it comfortable to you:
    Hey! You would be a lymphocyte!

  49. Zeke the Sneak says:

    DirkH on somatic hypermutation:
    ” lymphocytes multiply and deliberately mutate an area of their genome that produces antibodies. The lymphocyte that finally makes a matching antibody for the infectant gets to multiply, and now your immune system can mass-produce the antibody. Usually takes about 3 days.”

    I have a question about that, which anyone may or may not know the answer to, so no problem either way.

    If it takes three days for the lymphocyte to mutate an area of their genome, and then mass produce the genome the first time,

    has it ever been found to then occur much more quickly (with the exact same novel infectant of course) in other humans? Say, 1 or 2 days?

  50. Just look around if you can see any cancer cells…trying to “change” everything. :-)

  51. Zeke the Sneak says:
    September 14, 2010 at 6:59 pm

    The smaller, the faster they live, the faster their “tempo”. They may see neurons, or rather the brain, as an immortal being, which lives 80,90 years, four complete solar cycles!

  52. DirkH says:

    Zeke the Sneak says:
    September 14, 2010 at 6:59 pm
    “[…]If it takes three days for the lymphocyte to mutate an area of their genome, and then mass produce the genome the first time,

    has it ever been found to then occur much more quickly (with the exact same novel infectant of course) in other humans? Say, 1 or 2 days?”

    3 days is needed for the many trials necessary… Slowly ever better matches occur until the favorite antibody matches perfectly… It’s not an exact time. As it’s a game of chance, the first trial might already give a perfect fit but the probability of that is very low. So you could always observe shorter or longer time. I would suspect that different people have differently capable immune systems, just like some of us are fast sprinters and others slow.

    I know of no trials to detect people with especially strong immune systems.

  53. DirkH says:
    September 14, 2010 at 7:18 pm
    Perhaps there is bad climate or good climate down there too, kind of pH change…

  54. Zeke the Sneak says:

    There is a certain adaptability in very real time for DNA. And the adjustments can be quite radical for the animal.

    Two more examples–

    1.) E coli bacteria put in a medium where it can’t grow because it can’t make the enzyme required to break down the sugars. But if left in the medium long enough, colonies appear at a high frequency which do use that sugar.
    Life, Genetics, and Quantum Mechanics – Dr. Johnjoe McFadden, P1/2 at about 8 minutes into the video

    2.) One celled animals taken from a pond obtain energy through photosynthesis. The chloroplasts are removed from the cell, and the chloroplasts continue to live independently, as likewise the original cell, if a new food source is introduced, since without the chloroplasts, they cannot photosynthesize. The cell is then unable to re-assimilate the chloroplasts.
    source: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zufaN_aetZI

    So is DNA not only able to rapidly respond, but also rapidly forget?!

    If we were to Sneak in where angels fear to tread, is there more information the DNA has access to outside of the organism?

  55. Zeke the Sneak says:

    DirkH
    Thanks. It would be very hard to isolate all of the variables for the preferred enzyme and the strengths of the different immune systems,

    so that does answer my question.

  56. Try changing their climate system. No joke.

  57. P.G. Sharrow says:

    All photosynthesis plant cells have an infection of simple cells called chloroplasts. The chloroplast cells have their own RNA for coding. A plant that is not infected is fungi.The DNA coding in the photosynthic plant does not do the coding for the chloroplasts.It does code for the simbiotic ability. pg

  58. DirkH says:

    P.G. Sharrow says:
    September 14, 2010 at 8:10 pm
    “All photosynthesis plant cells have an infection of simple cells called chloroplasts. The chloroplast cells have their own RNA for coding. A plant that is not infected is fungi.The DNA coding in the photosynthic plant does not do the coding for the chloroplasts.It does code for the simbiotic ability. pg”

    I’d like to add: Just like plants came into being when some primitive one-celled organism got infected by chloroplasts (a symbiotic lifeform developed; the large cell protexts the chloroplast; the chloroplast delivers sugars), so animals came into being by infection through mitochondria; cells that over time lost all functions but converting raw nutrients to ATP, taking the job of a refinery. Mitochondria have a different genetic alphabet than the host cell, and a very small genome. They are complete aliens with respect to the host cell.

    A surprising symmetry between plants and animals.

  59. DirkH says:

    Zeke the Sneak says:
    September 14, 2010 at 7:25 pm
    “[…]1.) E coli bacteria put in a medium where it can’t grow because it can’t make the enzyme required to break down the sugars. But if left in the medium long enough, colonies appear at a high frequency which do use that sugar.
    Life, Genetics, and Quantum Mechanics – Dr. Johnjoe McFadden

    Interesting video, thanks. But i would interpret exactly this sudden increase in “mutability” (did it really mutate or did only the methylation change? Did they sequence the genomes?) as an epigenetic reaction – the cells activate a stress behaviour, randomly changing the on-off-switches of their genes to iterate faster through the solution space. Dr. McFadden says at one spot in the interview “the dogma was always that the environment does not influence the genome” [save for random mutations] – so it looks like he doesn’t think of the possibility of epigenetics here.

    It reminds me of Penrose who hypothesized that our consciousness is caused by quantum effects in the connections of our neurons or somesuch.

    Quantum theory is kind of a catch-all for inexplicable phenomena… i would say “try harder”.

  60. Zeke the Sneak says:

    “The DNA coding in the photosynthic plant does not do the coding for the chloroplasts.It does code for the simbiotic ability. pg”

    Right, but it was unable to re-accept the chloroplasts, so what happened to the genetic code? Was the code for the symbiotic ability lost?

  61. Zeke the Sneak says:

    DirkH says,
    “Quantum theory is kind of a catch-all for inexplicable phenomena… i would say “try harder.”

    There are quantum angels in multi-universes coming to alter the genes of the cells so they can quickly respond!

    Dr. Johnjoe McFadden would not dream of questioning the current scientific paradigms, but is incredibly forthright about the problems with them. So I respect him for that and enjoy what he has to say. I wish there were ten of him, lol.

    And if you take what he said about E coli at face value (which I did), he was emphatic that they were unable to use that sugar. He is a microbiologist and I think he was using his terms carefully. The significance of the findings rests on that fact.

  62. DirkH says:

    Zeke the Sneak says:
    September 14, 2010 at 9:17 pm
    “And if you take what he said about E coli at face value (which I did), he was emphatic that they were unable to use that sugar.”

    Of course – they took some E coli, put them on the sugar and observed no growth. So obviously the cells were unable to consume it. That’s how you test that. But this test says nothing about the capabilities of unused genes; hidden capabilities that the species acquired a long time ago. Maybe they have to switch on several genes, switch off several others to turn themselves into refineries for exactly this kind of sugar.

    After a while some of them were able to consume it. Now, was it a mutation? You can only be sure about that by sequencing the E. Colis you start with, and sequencing the ones you end up with.

    But, even more complicated: The “stressed” E Coli’s could increase their mutability! Mutations are sometimes caused by ionising rays, but they can also be caused by chemicals. Did the E Coli’s “poison” themselves with a self-produced mutagen to be able to race through the solution space faster? A kind of “fight or flight” response?

    Catching yourself a solution from a parallel universe… like Pres. Molinari in Philip K. Dick’s book “now wait for last year”… sorry, that would make life too easy for evolution. Think it through: It would be *THE* shortcut for superfast development!

  63. P.G. Sharrow says:

    Adapt or die. There is always a few cells that are a little different, if one can survive and divide then that line will take over and increase. Genes that work are used, ones that don’t help are ignored or shut down. pg

    Zeke the Sneak says:
    September 14, 2010 at 9:05 pm

    “Right, but it was unable to re-accept the chloroplasts, so what happened to the genetic code? Was the code for the symbiotic ability lost?”

    No. when the chloroplast was inside it was a part of self. The cell was created with the chloroplast inside, they were in tune chemically (ionic). Once outside they became charge dissimular, and became a foreign body. Kind of like a baby becomes a foreign body to be born. Before that, the baby is a part of “self”. pg

    Zeke the Sneak says:
    September 14, 2010 at 9:17 pm

    There are quantum angels in multi-universes coming to alter the genes of the cells so they can quickly respond!

    You are close to correct with that. In an Aetheral universe, physics and psychics meet. pg

  64. tallbloke says:

    “In an Aetheral universe, physics and psychics meet. pg”

    To prove that this is correct, I will now move some matter purely with the willpower of my mind.

    :Raises arm and waves to P.G.: :)

  65. johnnythelowery says:

    On the outer surface of the Scientist, his single entity organ, which has no beginning point or end point or evidence of fastening, which is semi-permeable, called skin, shows a line of Symmetry running from the top of the Scientists head, through the body on a vertical X-Y axis which is true for both the front and the back but not latitudinally. Internally, there is not the symmetry. Obviously, spacial awareness, geography of the body, and it’s X-Y axis is known by control mechanisms at least. The location of each cell in thiis geography, is known down to individual cells as at some point cells next to each other physically are commanded to different tasks in accordance with this axis at the spacial boundary of one to another. THe metric for this calculation is undetermined. This is done in the dark, internally, With no external ques for spatial orientation. The construction and maintenance of the Scientist by it’s organized molecules seem to continue, according to the X-Y axis orientation, whether he is at rest-Horizontal, At work-Vertical, Down the Pub-tangential :-). The Scientist is definately Weird!!!!!

  66. johnnythelowery says:

    DirkH says:
    September 14, 2010 at 4:19 pm
    ‘…….So, mechanisms that alter the genome – increasing the mutability drastically and very targeted – do exist in our own bodies. Some researcher used this mechanism to optimize fluorescent proteins for defined wavelengths of light IIRC – sorry, i have no link. It was on the german innovationsreport some time ago….’

    Our Scientist is not a Spotty German. But his German is spotty:-). Anyway,
    Our Scientist’s system of anti-body generation….

    …………… “According to the 1997 paper, “Deriving Shape Space Parameters from Immunological Data” by D. J. Smith et al. (which can be viewed online), the shape space for antibody diversity is no larger than 10^16. That equates to about 50 bits, which is far short of 500.” A Rabbit (apparently) can make an antibody that will specifically react with any protein from any species on this planet. But, the only way the search space would be 4 billion nucleotides would be if 4 billion specified nucleotides were required to bind an antigen.”
    Unfortunately the process needs to find the 3 or so base pairs that need to be modified to achieve a new binding from a similar one in somatic hypermutation. The search space is the whole genome for neo-Darwinists like Dawkins. Why? Because, if natural selection is true, then “mutations are random with respect to the needs of the organism in coping with its environment” (Templeton). For selection to be the primary cause the mutational mechanism should be random with respect to which base pairs need to be modified.

    Okay. Ready. well, IT ISN’T. Our Weired scientist is about to get a little weirder. Especially if he’s had a few pints already. The mutuation process is focused, out of the whole genome, on the 400 base pairs that might be useful. Therefore, the primary cause for the mutation in THE genome sequence of 4 Billion base pairs (More for Gore as he has the AGW strings) is (MYSTERY), which tells the cell which subset of the 4,000,000,000 base pairs in the genome need to be searched. Genes are very easy to evolve, especially if the cell already has the information to tell it where to look. Thus, it is evolution by some sort of hijacked
    pre-selection process, not evolution by natural selection. But….the specified sequence that produces an antibody binding site…is not encoded anywhere in the hypermutation location specification…[it] has been generated by the mutation-selection process. Or has it?? As an example, Nylon-eating bacteria are an example. First, note _which_ gene duplicated – it was one similar to what was needed. Second, there were 140 point mutations. If the mutation rate was that high in the rest of the genome, it would have killed the bacteria. In other words, the sequence space was restricted to the likely area where it would do good. Finally, location of the frameshift was interesting. It is extremely unlikely, from a chance perspective, for an antisense strand to have no stop codons of the length found here. According to Yomo et al (PNAS 89:3780-3784) “…the location of the NSF just coincides with the ORF for EIII, and the reading frame for the NSF shares the same triplet as that for the ORF. These results imply that there may be some unknown mechanism behind the evolution of these genes…”

    It appears there is an mystery process has a memory, such that adding up to 150 bits is possible, but adding 1 more bit (or 100, or 1000, etc.) later on is impossible, because the system “remembers” that it already hit the limit of 150 bits.” [note it’s actually 500 bits, but 10^150].

    Now, remember our 4 billion basepairs, the search space which is searchable by the world’s best machines in a reasonable amount of time is somewhere on the order of 40 bits. However, the search process is specified in bits because it’s the best way to represent orders of magnitude. They are log2 of the probability. Therefore, if you have two searches, each with 40 bits, that’s 41 bits. If you do three searches, that’s 41.5 bits. If you do four searches, that’s 42 bits. If you do 100 searches, that’s 46.6 bits……………’

    I don’t believe the name of our ‘Not a spotty German’ Scientist friend is ‘WILLY NILLY’. I think there is something weired about him. He tries to blend into his surroundings by way of ubiquity of impossibility. But i for one don’t buy it. He’s definately weired.

  67. johnnythelowery says:

    Our Scientist friend lives in America. What would it take to repair every pot-hole on every road in America with 40 crews, before the Scientist goes to the Pub?? Well, something akin to that happens on his DNA every day on every one of them(?).

    ‘………………………….The findings are available today in Molecular Cell.
    Everyone is constantly bombarded with environmental toxins that inflict small errors in the DNA code, so a rapid repair system is essential to maintain the integrity of the sequences for proper cell function, explained senior author Bennett Van Houten, Ph.D., Richard M. Cyert Professor of Molecular Oncology and leader, molecular and cellular cancer biology program, University of Pittsburgh Cancer Institute (UPCI), and professor, Department of Pharmacology and Chemical Biology, University of Pittsburgh School of Medicine.
    “How this system works is an important unanswered question in this field,” he said. “It has to be able to identify very small mistakes in a 3-dimensional morass of gene strands. It’s akin to spotting potholes on every street all over the country and getting them fixed before the next rush hour.”
    The researchers sought to unravel the mystery by tagging two repair proteins, called UvrA and UvrB, with quantum dots, which are semi-conductor nanocrystals that light up in different colors. They also stretched the usually clumped DNA into multiple “tightropes” to see the process more clearly.
    They watched while UvrA proteins randomly jumped from one DNA molecule to the next, holding on to one spot for about seven seconds before hopping to another site. But when UvrA formed a complex with two UvrB molecules (UvrAB), a new and more efficient search technique emerged: the complex slid along the DNA tightrope for as long as 40 seconds before detaching itself and jumping to another molecule.
    “If an E.coli bacterium had only one UvrAB complex, 13 hours would elapse before the entire genome was scanned for errors,” said lead researcher Neil M. Kad, Ph.D., Department of Biological Sciences, University of Essex, United Kingdom. “About 40 complexes, comparable to the estimates of what occurs naturally, would be needed to scan it within the bacterium’s 20-minute doubling time.”
    In addition to random jumping and sliding, the researchers also observed what they called “paused motion,” in which UvrAB’s motion seemed slower and purposeful.
    “About one-third of the motile molecules in our study behaved this way,” said co-author David M. Warshaw, Ph.D., professor and chair, Department of Molecular Physiology and Biophysics, University of Vermont. “Paused motion could represent UvrAB complexes checking for structural abnormalities associated with DNA damage.”
    The researchers now are exploring the possibility that the complexes sample the shape or chemical configuration of DNA by interacting with it; an error could alter the local DNA structure, changing its handshake with the repair proteins and perhaps triggering a corrective response.
    The study was funded by the National Institutes of Health, the Royal Society and UPCI. Hong Wang, Ph.D., of UPCI and the University of Pittsburgh School of Medicine, and Guy G. Kennedy, of the University of Vermont’s Instrumentation and Model Facility, co-authored the paper………………………….’

    Buit first, the process has to switch off these little ‘Complexes’ in our Lymphocyte Antigen production faciility in the Lymph nodes under the scientists armpit presumably. How do these Complexes move around? By track? How do they stay on the track? What system of propulsion do they use? What tells them to start? Why do they do this even? How do they know which way to go? How does the complex ‘know’ something is wrong? Does the complex have a map? How do they know when they are done? Can they move in reverse? Do they have a clutch?

  68. Where does it coincide the scientist with science?, obviously:

    1.Where the phenomenon of life appears.
    2.Where does it happen?
    3.In the chemical realm at certain pH level, outside of which it “explodes”, it disappears
    4.The pH curve has some inflexion points
    5.Those inflexion points correspond to the gaps or intervals of the musical octave.
    6.In the development of a plasma current these are called the “double layers”or “reconnection” for others.
    7.These are transient states, of limited time existence, where either energy is gained or lost
    8.These can be considered, also, as discrete ammounts of energy or matter, the Quanta.
    9.In every level, or in every octave of the universal keyboard these can be observed and studied by the scientist.
    10.Who, being a trascient phenomenon, being life, that “trick”nature has to overcome entropy, can also examine its own existence as an epiphenomenon, as a double layer, from skin to brain, as a thinking quanta, not only as a simple physical reproductive machine emitting quanta, feeding up with quantized amounts of energy or whatever physical and valid analogy and also, the most important duty in the ethos sense: if fulfilling properly its obligation of increasing the energy of life to higher pitches or following the inexorable law of falling: to lower levels of energy, bigger wavelengths , lower frequencies and a final and unavoidable death.

  69. Zeke the Sneak says:

    tallbloke says, “To prove that this is correct, I will now move some matter purely with the willpower of my mind.

    :Raises arm and waves to P.G.: ”

    Here is yet another example of the electrical force overcoming gravity, as the electrical force is 10^39 more powerful than gravitational force, and giving a far better explanation for the behavior of the matter we are observing.

    And as usual, someone attributes it to something else!

    (-:

  70. Typo: Definition of TRANSIENT
    1
    a : passing especially quickly into and out of existence : transitory
    b : passing through or by a place with only a brief stay or sojourn
    2
    : affecting something or producing results beyond itself

  71. Zeke the Sneak says:
    September 15, 2010 at 3:26 pm

    Now you know what a “GRAVE” sound means.

  72. Zeke the Sneak says:

    johnnythelowery says:
    September 14, 2010 at 1:03 am
    How many seemingly impossible things have to be discovered before Scientists go: “you know, don’t tell anyone, but there really is something really freakin weired going on!”

    Answer: Couple of million

    So you are going to have to make a couple million more posts about our wierd Scientist before you can get anyone here to question whether genetic processes are random (on-off stress responses or quantum effects from other universes). His name is STILL Dr. Willy Nilly.
    :D I’ll just get comfortably tangential at the Pub and watch.

  73. Zeke the Sneak says:
    September 15, 2010 at 3:54 pm
    As by what you say to “johnnythelower”, will you abandon yourself to the law of gravity or rather you will fight against the wind to become a conscious and operating quanta?
    Everything it’s a matter of spin….you know. And, as far as there are enough photons going up there is hope, even for those who prefer the randomness of a chaotic death.

  74. Zeke the Sneak says:

    Adolfo Giurfa says
    September 15, 2010 at 4:21 pm

    Adolfo, I think I will choose the transient life by your second definition:
    TRANSIENT
    2
    : affecting something or producing results beyond itself

    So that life, down to the DNA, is working instantaneously, producing results beyond itself at any distance and in any quantity :D

  75. Way within too, if not, the inner light ends up, explodes, as Dr.S’ reconnections.

  76. johnnythelowery says:

    Zeke the Sneak says:
    September 15, 2010 at 3:54 pm
    johnnythelowery says:
    September 14, 2010 at 1:03 am
    How many seemingly impossible things have to be discovered before Scientists go: “you know, don’t tell anyone, but there really is something really freakin weired going on!”

    Answer: Couple of million
    So you are going to have to make a couple million more posts about our wierd Scientist before you can get anyone here to question whether genetic processes are random (on-off stress responses or quantum effects from other universes). His name is STILL Dr. Willy Nilly.

    I’ll just get comfortably tangential at the Pub and watch.
    ————————————————————————————————————————–
    Zeke:
    Until we get off the ‘there is no God’, we are not really going to progress much. For instance, Telemere’s on the end of the DNA, when the DNA is copied, assuming it aquired the copy license to do so, get’s lopped off, one at a time. Do you see the presence of the theory of the existence of the passage of a non-existing entity called TIME in this process? At All? Not even a little bit??? Maybe we’ll have to do that beer.
    Bitter or Lager?? Your local or mine??

  77. Zeke the Sneak says:
    September 15, 2010 at 4:33 pm
    Or should I call you Zeke, the Central Plasmoid?

    Electric power flows along the spiral arms of a galactic circuit where it is concentrated and stored in a central plasmoid within the galactic bulge. When the current density reaches a critical threshold, it discharges along the galaxy’s spin axis as an energetic jet of plasma. That phenomenon has been replicated in the laboratory with a plasma focus device

  78. Zeke the Sneak says:

    You must not be from around here. They do have Lager, but no one ever touches the stuff. How about a micro brew ale. The place to discuss these problems would be The Veritable Quandry (-:

    They have roast duck too.

  79. Zeke the Sneak says:

    Adolfo Giurfa (September 15, 2010 at 4:47 pm) says,

    That is a great Picture of the Day. Did you see this?

    Right there, hidden in plain sight, in the center of each galaxy!

  80. tallbloke says:

    Zeke the Sneak says:
    September 15, 2010 at 3:26 pm (Edit)

    tallbloke says, “To prove that this is correct, I will now move some matter purely with the willpower of my mind.

    :Raises arm and waves to P.G.: ”

    “Here is yet another example of the electrical force overcoming gravity, as the electrical force is 10^39 more powerful than gravitational force, and giving a far better explanation for the behavior of the matter we are observing.”

    And as usual, someone attributes it to something else!

    (-:

    Well that made the corners of my mouth defy gravity, and I didn’t consciously direct them to either. :)

  81. johnnythelowery says:

    Peter Jackison- The director of Lord of Rings is a pretty dependable sort of bloke id say. He recently was interviewed as to why he took the directorship of a movie about Ghosts. He said he was in an apartment in NZ, and he saw a ghost. A figure, with a rather mortified face. Later, while driving around with his wife, he made this remark of what he saw, and she said, “oh, the one with the screaming face?”. There is the British retired Javelin champion, who had similar experiences, i’d open all his doors and windows when he was out. Dependable bloke. Credibility…Yes. Demented…Not really. Mistaken…nice try, but no. The phenomenon of Ghosts is reported in the bible…’ their sklin was white, as if they’d seen a ghost’.

    While i don’t dig UFO’s, Cosmic power of Prisms, Bermuda Triangles. I do dig ghosts and the Shroud of Turin is a bit weired. I feel inquiries into the Physics of these Ghost forms is the key to understanding the world around us. Because if M-Theory is correct, the higgs exists, and the Alpha Constant, as predicted by M-Theory, is changing from the effect of Multiverses, and mass of the graviton is lost @ LHC and goes off into this other concurrently running, but undetectable other universe(s). once we get to the ‘now we know there is a multi-verse.’ The question will be then, now what? These Ghosts are revealing something we’ve yet had the brains to decide to accept and investigate and theorize. They don’t dissappear when observed, they interact with matter, they are concious. I don’t like to rely on ‘people’ for facts. But in this case….i’m making an exception.

  82. tallbloke says:

    Johnny, you don’t think Peter Jackson might tell a tall ghost story to make his movie more successful do you?

  83. johnnythelowery says:

    “MAY the Electrical force be with you!”
    “And also with You!!”
    Amen.

  84. johnnythelowery says:

    ….About Herr Willy Nilly and his..Lymphocytes……” lymphocytes multiply and deliberately mutate an area of their genome that produces antibodies. The lymphocyte that finally makes a matching antibody for the infectant gets to multiply, and now your immune system can mass-produce the antibody. Usually takes about 3 days.”

    HHHhhmmmmmmm. That is odd isn’t it. 4 Billion nucleotides (Herr Willy Nilly has propensity to believe in AGW in his gene, so, his nucleotide is longer to accomodate all the B/S)……………………..

    Conceptual Foundations of Science
    Baylor University, Box 7130
    Waco, Texas 76798
    William_Dembski@baylor.edu
    version 2.1, 4 March 2005
    Abstract
    Searching for small targets in large spaces is a common problem in the
    sciences. Because blind search is inadequate for such searches, it needs
    to be supplemented with additional information, thereby transforming
    a blind search into an assisted search. This additional information can
    be quantified and indicates that assisted searches themselves result from
    searching higher-level search spaces–by conducting, as it were, a search
    for a search. Thus, the original search gets displaced to a higher-level
    search. The key result in this paper is a displacement theorem, which
    shows that successfully resolving such a higher-level search is exponentially
    more difficult than successfully resolving the original search. Leading up
    to this result, a measure-theoretic version of the No Free Lunch theorems
    is formulated and proven. The paper shows that stochastic mechanisms,
    though able to explain the success of assisted searches in locating targets,
    cannot, in turn, explain the source of assisted searches.
    1 BlindSearch
    Most searches that come up in scientific investigation occur over spaces that are
    far too large to be searched exhaustively. Take the search for a very modest
    protein, one that is, say, 100 amino acids in length (most proteins are at least
    250 to 300 amino acids in length). The space of all possible protein sequences
    that are 100 amino acids in length has size 20100, or approximately 1.27×10130.
    Exhaustively searching a space this size to find a target this small is utterly
    1
    beyond not only present computational capacities but also the computational
    capacities of the universe as we know it. Seth Lloyd (2002), for instance, has
    argued that 10120 is the maximal number of bit operations that the known,
    observable universe could have performed throughout its entire multi-billion
    year history. If exhaustive searches are infeasible for large spaces, what about random
    searches? Do random searches fare better at successfully finding small targets
    in large spaces? The answer depends on what one means by the term random?
    Ordinarily what is meant is this: the internal structure of some large space Ω
    treats all its points as equivalent in the sense that the internal structure doesn’t
    distinguish certain regions of the space from others. This internal structure is
    typically captured via a geometry and thus encapsulated in a metric D on Ω. In
    turn, D induces a uniform probability U on Ω (see Dembski 1990; spaces that are
    not uniformizable are the exception rather than the rule for most of the search
    problems that come up in scientific investigation). In general, random searches
    of Ω therefore come down to either uniform random sampling or random walks
    without drift.
    When it comes to locating small targets in large spaces, random sampling
    and random walks are equally ineffective. Uniform random sampling treats Ω
    like a giant urn from which items are drawn (with replacement) according to the
    uniform probability U. Each draw constitutes a brand-new attempt to locate a
    point in the target. Because such draws are probabilistically independent of each
    other, uniform random sampling cannot build on past successes in attempting
    to reach the target. For each sampling event, success at reaching the target is
    all-or-nothing………………………….’

    There is something weired about our Scientist Herr Willy Nilly.

  85. DirkH says:

    Johnnythelowery; do you think i made this up? Even the wikipedia explains it.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Somatic_hypermutation

    You see, it’s not a blind search through all combinations. That would admittedly take much too long. It’s a guided search with a smooth evaluation function. How exactly this works is near-mysterious; how does the body determine which mutants are better and which one worse? But it does work; and very smoothly.

    If my English is too spotty for you, i will have to live with that. Have a nice day. Try to figure out the basic principles of evolutions if you ever find the time.

  86. johnnythelowery says:

    DirkH says:
    September 15, 2010 at 9:17 pm
    Try to figure out the basic principles of evolutions if you ever find the time.

    ————————————————————————————————————————–
    DirkH
    Ouch. You got me there! I skip the basics with evolution as it, and you are obviously a self appointed expert, can’t get started. It can’t explain the basics. Thats the whole point. Pan Spermia anyone???

    The first living cell is a mountain evolution can’t climb.

  87. johnnythelowery says:

    Where’s my Scrumpy friend….??

  88. johnnythelowery says:

    …it’s not a search through all the combinations. Oh. Really. Of course it isn’t. Thats the WHOLE point. It’s a fatal blow to Stephen Jay Gould’s version of Evolution. And glad to hear you agree with it.

  89. Zeke the Sneak says:

    Dinner menu for September 18th, The Veritable Quandary

    LATE NIGHT BAR MENU, SERVED 3PM-MIDNIGHT
    Artisan Cheese Plate Seasonal Fruit, Nuts & Bruschetta 16. Sweet and Spicy Fried Cashews 5., Rabbit Pate with Toasted Brioche Two Mustards, Prune Vinegar & Sweet Pickles 10., Giant Prawns Wrapped in Bacon Chayote, Creme Fraiche & Chilaquiles Sauce 12., Marinated Olives with Romesco 5.

    Ah yes, here it is,
    Duck Confit Spring Rolls
    Wasabi Ginger Sauce 9.

    You can’t win against quantum parallel universes, guided random mutations, hidden genomes that must have been there all along, etc., so may as well have the duck.

  90. Zeke the Sneak says:

    “Well that made the corners of my mouth defy gravity, and I didn’t consciously direct them to either.” tallbloke

    An important electrical effect, good for the EM field! (-:

  91. Zeke the Sneak says:
    September 15, 2010 at 4:59 pm
    I just saw the video of the link you gave. That´s what I meant :-)

  92. Zeke the Sneak says:

    Adolfo Giurfa says:
    September 16, 2010 at 2:08 am
    I thought you would like that plasma focus device. I’ll be away for a bit, talk to you then!
    ———————————————————————————————————————–
    “For more than 10 years plasma physicists have had an electrical model of galaxies. It works with real-world physics. The model is able to successfully account for the observed shapes and dynamics of galaxies without recourse to invisible dark matter and central black holes. It explains simply the powerful electric jets seen issuing along the spin axis from the cores of active galaxies. Recent results from mapping the magnetic field of a spiral galaxy confirm the electric model.”

  93. tallbloke says:

    Zeke

    Any text to go with the images?

    Is the movie a computer simulation of something which has been done, or a pitch for funding?

  94. Zeke the Sneak says:

    tallbloke,

    To answer your second question:

    “– In January 2009, the US Patent office issued Patent 7,482,607, Method and apparatus for producing X-rays, ion beams and nuclear fusion energy, to Eric J. Lerner and Aaron Blake, with the assignment of the patent to Lawrenceville Plasma Physics, Inc.

    — In February 2009, LPP moved into its new office where the equipment was assembled.

    — Throughout 2009, Eric Lerner and the research team designed and assembled the DPF with initial tests conducted in October.

    — Testing and experimenting continued through 2010, concentrating on improving the switches and testing the axial magnetic coil.”

    (emphasis mine)

    http://www.lawrencevilleplasmaphysics.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=61&Itemid=79

    Lawrenceville Plasma Physics says that this was all privately funded. It appears the whole project went forward with $1.2 million from private investors and the Abell Foundation.

    This could be a source of inexpensive energy.

  95. Zeke the Sneak says:

    “The Black Hole at the Heart of Astronomy”

    The energy of the jets seen issuing from active galactic nuclei (AGNs) is attributed to conversion of gravitational energy of accreting matter into radiation. But that does not explain the character of the jets, or the puzzling “quietness” of our own hypothetical black hole. As recently as 26 March in Nature it was admitted “the mechanisms that trigger and suppress jet formation in [black holes] remain a mystery.” Meanwhile, the plasmoid is well known in the plasma laboratory as a high-density energy storage phenomenon that produces well-collimated jets after a time that depends upon particle collisions within the plasmoid.

    X-ray emission is a signature of electrical activity. There is a persistent high-energy flux from the heart of the Milky Way. The spectral characteristics of the X-ray emission from this region suggests that the source is most likely not point-like but, rather, that it is a compact, yet diffuse, non-thermal emission region, which we should expect from an electromagnetic plasmoid. There is an overabundance of X-ray transients in the inner parsec of the Galactic Center compared to the overall distribution of X-ray sources. Recent observations show that X-ray flares fire roughly every 20 minutes – a regularity that is hard to explain in terms of erratic infall of matter into a black hole. But clockwork regularity of plasma discharges already explains the pulsations from other bodies in deep space. Scientists were also startled when they discovered in 2004 that the center of our galaxy is emitting gamma rays with energies in the tens of trillions of electron volts. The plasma focus is the most copious source of high-energy particles and radiation known to plasma experimenters.

    Wal Thornhill
    holoscience.com

  96. tallbloke says:

    Thanks. So, no fusion yet, but they are working on it with private funding.

    Nice images of galaxy and plasma lab work. Regularity of gama ray emissions at 20 mins is interesting too.

  97. Zeke the Sneak says:
    September 16, 2010 at 7:56 am
    “The Black Hole at the Heart of Astronomy”

    Or rather: …in the navel of astronomers :-)
    X-ray emission is a signature of electrical activity
    So the shortest wavelengths and higher frequencies are to be found at the CORE (meaning=Heart) of the Galaxy. Bad news: We are at the periphery….a long way to climb up.

  98. Zeke the Sneak says:
    September 16, 2010 at 3:41 am
    This one you gave is impressive:

    Like a soul departing from an old body!

  99. johnnythelowery says:

    To Zeke (Head Chef @ the Veritable Quandray)

    (Hilarious post. Thank you very much!!! )

    The food was delicious. The Bitter was brilllo. and the scrumpy gave me Delhi Belly. I’m not on a diet but a week at your restaraunt and i’ll look like Ghandi: Flip-flops, wrap-around diaper, optical failure(glasses), the whole works.

    I can’t fight against the sheer lack of incredulity. Evolution is the explanation. Evolution is non-sense. Anyway, i’ll discuss that idea some other time.

    SO…..Why does the physics world (and you know who you are) reject the rather stark evidence that there is a black hole in their astronomy theories????? Why don’t they just say, ….oh yeah, why don’t they just incorporate it into their way of thinking. Why is the electrical idea seen as such a skunk???

  100. tallbloke says:

    If Zeke is still serving I’ll have a pint of that nice looking micro-brew bitter. I don’t want any of those imperialist titbits though, isn’t there some proper food?

    Johnny, The Queen of the sciences brooks no diseent from upstart electrical engineers. Gravity is what holds the ivory tower together and that’s good enough for them.

  101. Maybe because it makes the math so much harder?

  102. When you add in electromechanical forces you have to consider at least 4 dimensions and include the 1st and 2nd derivatives (at least) of all functions, and because of the interactive nature of electro magnetic fields, you need to include all bodies within the affected areas, with data that cannot be measured distally.

  103. tallbloke says:

    Richard, so not only can science not explain the scientist, but it can’t explain the science either? Oh dear.

    So what are the options? Can we draw some general inferences about how the universe ticks and start looking for new ways to quantify the activity of the phenomena under study by combining gravity and E.M. in a unified field with non-linear parameters?

  104. Richard Holle says:
    September 16, 2010 at 2:30 pm
    Maybe because it makes the math so much harder?

    Read the following:

    http://milesmathis.com/calcsimp.html

    As Tallbloke says: new ways to quantify …. with [without] non-linear parameters?
    I.E.Mathemathics without SELF-CONCEIT
    BTW, computers only know to add and substract. Though, if inclined to music, you could find the Pitagoras’ monochord helpful. :-)

  105. johnnythelowery says:

    Well, we’ve deduced his name is Herr Willy Nilly. He’s a rear admira(L) type from the Navel Academy…. :-)

  106. johnnythelowery says:

    He’s made of a strange multicplicity of particles and there is a multiplicity of strange forces acting on him. One of which is this (from the Telegraph (UK)) today:
    ————————————————————————————————————————-
    Researchers say Pioneer 10, which took the first close-up pictures of Jupiter before leaving our solar system in 1983, is being pulled back to the sun by an unknown force. The effect shows no sign of getting weaker as the spacecraft travels deeper into space, and scientists are considering the possibility that the probe has revealed a new force of nature.

    Dr Philip Laing, a member of the research team tracking the craft, said: “We have examined every mechanism and theory we can think of and so far nothing works.

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    Talk that the Chinese are circling Gulfsands”If the effect is real, it will have a big impact on cosmology and spacecraft navigation,” said Dr Laing, of the Aerospace Corporation of California.

    Pioneer 10 was launched by Nasa on March 2 1972, and with Pioneer 11, its twin, revolutionised astronomy with detailed images of Jupiter and Saturn. In June 1983, Pioneer 10 passed Pluto, the most distant planet in our solar system.

    Both probes are now travelling at 27,000mph towards stars that they will encounter several million years from now. Scientists are continuing to monitor signals from Pioneer 10, which is more than seven billion miles from Earth.

    Research to be published shortly in The Physical Review, a leading physics journal, will show that the speed of the two probes is being changed by about 6 mph per century – a barely-perceptible effect about 10 billion times weaker than gravity.

    Scientists initially suspected that gas escaping from tiny rocket motors aboard the probes, or heat leaking from their nuclear power plants might be responsible. Both have now been ruled out. The team says no current theories explain why the force stays constant: all the most plausible forces, from gravity to the effect of solar radiation, decrease rapidly with distance.

    The bizarre behaviour has also eliminated the possibility that the two probes are being affected by the gravitational pull of unknown planets beyond the solar system.

    Assertions by some scientists that the force is due to a quirk in the Pioneer probes have also been discounted by the discovery that the effect seems to be affecting Galileo and Ulysses, two other space probes still in the solar system. Data from these two probes suggests the force is of the same strength as that found for the Pioneers.

    Dr Duncan Steel, a space scientist at Salford University, says even such a weak force could have huge effects on a cosmic scale. “It might alter the number of comets that come towards us over millions of years, which would have consequences for life on Earth. It also raises the question of whether we know enough about the law of gravity.”

    Until 1988, Pioneer 10 was the most remote object made by man – a distinction now held by Voyager 1. Should Pioneer 10 make contact with alien life, it carries a gold-plated aluminium plaque on which the figures of a man and woman are shown to scale, along with a map showing its origin that Nasa calls “the cosmic equivalent of a message in a bottle”.

  107. P.G. Sharrow says:

    Maybe they neglected to include the effects of aether on the space probes’ velocity. ;-) pg

  108. P.G. Sharrow says:
    September 17, 2010 at 1:53 am

    As for the EU theorists, both ships have arrived at the “double layer” zone, or where a musician could call a “gap” or interval in the solar system octave.

  109. P.G. Sharrow says:

    I’ m not a musician so I don’t understand that language, sorry. But the change in local aether density, due to the decrease in the solar wind and area standing waves cause by the rotating solar fields, I do see. 8-) pg

  110. Zeke the Sneak says:

    johnnythelowery says:
    September 16, 2010 at 2:22 pm

    I can’t fight against the sheer lack of incredulity. Anyway, i’ll discuss that idea some other time.

    It seems our Scientist Dr. Willy Nilly is not all that pele mele when you get down to the nitty gritty.

    Not bad for a days’ work (-:

  111. Tenuc says:

    DirkH says:
    September 15, 2010 at 9:17 pm
    “You see, it’s not a blind search through all combinations. That would admittedly take much too long. It’s a guided search with a smooth evaluation function. How exactly this works is near-mysterious; how does the body determine which mutants are better and which one worse? But it does work; and very smoothly.”

    Interesting conundrum! Perhaps only certain sequences produce functionally viable types of bacteria/virus. Could be we store a bank of info as production templates for infections our ancestors successfully fought.

    If either of both possibilities are true, then the number of attempts to produce an antibody would be vastly reduced.