The Myth of ‘Backradiation’.
Stephen Wilde
1) The so called ‘consensus’ theory of the Greenhouse Effect.
At some point over the past twenty years or so it has come to be believed that the physics of radiation is the primary driving process for planetary atmospheric temperatures.
I do not know how or when that happened but it is contrary to the settled science that I grew up with some 40 years ago.
The idea is that certain gases in the atmosphere known as Greenhouse Gases absorb and emit more radiation than the other, majority, gases such as Oxygen and Nitrogen which make up the vast bulk of Earth’s atmosphere.
Consequently it is proposed that such Greenhouse Gases block radiation emanating from the Earth’s surface from escaping to space and re- radiate a proportion of such upward radiation back to the surface which then becomes warmer than it otherwise would have done.
That, in essence is the Greenhouse Theory of radiative gases and that underlies the entire proposition that human emissions of CO2 and other similar gases such as Methane are capable of heating up the Earth so as to change climates and ultimately cause devastation.
2) The original theory of the Greenhouse Effect.
When I was being educated back in the 1960’s the so called Greenhouse Effect was widely regarded as a consequence of atmospheric pressure. That was the ‘consensus’ view in those days.
It was often stated that the high pressure at the surface of Venus was the cause of the heat at the surface.
The atmosphere of Venus is around 90 times the mass of that of Earth and it was accepted that that was the cause of the surface temperature. Nobody suggested in those days that the higher temperature at the surface of Venus was anything to do with the fact that the atmosphere is comprised of 95% of CO2 as against the 0.04% of CO2 in Earth’s atmosphere.
In fact it was pretty obvious that CO2 had nothing to do with it because the atmosphere of Mars is also around 95% CO2 yet the surface temperature is low so it isn’t anything to do with the simple proportions of the atmospheric concentrations of CO2.
It was widely accepted that atmospheric pressure was the critical factor in accordance with the established science of the Gas Laws details of which can be found here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lapse_rate
Thus:
“While most often applied to Earth’s atmosphere the concept can be extended to any gravitationally supported ball of gas”
and:
“this lapse or reduction in temperature is normal with increasing distance from the conductive source”.
So there it is, out in the public domain, the fact that surface temperature for a planet with an atmosphere has a temperature at the surface higher than the temperature at the top of the atmosphere and the lapse rate describes the rate at which that surface temperature declines with height.
The temperature of the Earth at the surface is completely explained by the Gas Laws and the Adiabatic Lapse Rate with no need to consider the radiative characteristics of the individual components of the atmosphere.
Furthermore it has been shown that the temperature of Venus is much the same as that of Earth at the same atmospheric pressure subject only to an adjustment for distance from the sun. CO2 clearly has nothing to do with the surface temperature.
3) Which Greenhouse Theory is correct ?
Huge confusion has been caused by that ‘consensus’ theory because we have an entire generation (possibly two) of scientists, students and members of the public who think that molecules of Greenhouse Gases are drifting around in the atmosphere like little mini radiators directing heat back down to the surface and warming it up potentially catastrophically. Indeed I did read a newspaper report describing the phenomenon in just that way.
Fortunately, it is utter nonsense. There are no little radiators in the sky heating us up until we descend into oblivion by destroying our environment.
The truth is that it is a matter of pressure (induced by the gravitational field of the planet and atmospheric mass) plus the level of solar input that determines the temperature at the surface of ANY planet.
Those factors and those factors alone determine the amount of energy that any given planet can hold on to before any excess is lost to space.
The temperature of the surface of any planet is limited by gravity, atmospheric mass and solar input alone as per the Gas Laws and if any change in the composition of the planet or its atmosphere tries to increase that temperature then the atmospheric circulation simply reconfigures itself to eject the excess faster to space by a variety of radiative and non radiative processes.
Further evidence in support of that is the simple fact that ALL atmospheric gases are at the same ambient temperature at any given height in the atmospheric column. Thus (relatively) non radiative gases such as Oxygen and Nitrogen participate fully in the effect, no doubt from conduction and convection which would have warmed those gases up in the earliest days of the formation of our atmosphere.
Once one involves ALL atmospheric gases in the warming effect then a little more CO2 from human emissions becomes utterly trivial and not worth consideration especially when one includes our oceans as part of our atmosphere as we should.
4) An example of confusion.
I recently became involved in a blog discussion involving, amongst other things, the fact that where a table is left out in a garden overnight there will be condensation on the top of the table, condensation on the grass all around but little or no condensation on the grass under the table.
There were all sorts of convoluted radiative solutions considered including radiation from the ground to the underside of the table and from the underside of the table to the ground then from the top of the table upwards and from the sky downwards. None of it was satisfactory because the radiation down from the underside of the table would be insufficient to prevent condensation below the table and if radiation were coming down from the sky then the table top being insulated to some degree from the ground should not have been so wet from condensation when it should have been warmed by the sky above. It just couldn’t be made to fit the observations if there is significant downward radiation from the sky as proposed by AGW theory.
However, if one applies the Gas Laws, ignoring radiation downward from the atmosphere the answer becomes clear. The presence of the table top blocks radiation from the ground which remains warmer than it would have been so less condensation occurs on the ground beneath the table. The top of the table radiates freely to space and becomes cold enough to reduce the air above it to below the dew point and so receives condensation.
5) A better concept.
The Gas Laws explain perfectly well why the surface is the warmest place (excluding geothermal activity) for a planet with an atmosphere. Due to gravity there are more molecules of the atmosphere per unit of volume at or just above the surface so when solar irradiation comes along there are more molecules per unit volume for it to react with either directly via radiation or indirectly via conduction from the surface and greater heat is generated at the surface declining with height. That is very simple and very obvious.
It is a mistake to then regard the atmosphere as radiating down to the surface because the atmosphere always radiates upward. Instead we should regard the atmosphere as being heated by energy scattering from the surface upward such that it is the temperature of the atmosphere just at or above the surface that passes energy back to the ground and not the sky as proposed by AGW theory.
Everything makes much more sense on that basis.
6) Conclusion.
An atmosphere of ANY composition will heat the surface below in accordance with the Gas Laws which dictate that the only relevant factors determining surface temperature are surface pressure (from gravity and atmospheric mass) and solar energy input. Those factors, and those factors alone, control surface temperature and indeed energy content for the system as a whole.
A change in composition for any part of the system will only alter the rate at which energy flows through the system so that for example IF more GHGs do indeed slow down the throughput of energy then the system will provide another way of speeding it up again for a zero net effect. All that happens is that the balance changes between one type of energy transfer and another. The system has radiation, evaporation, conduction, convection and the water cycle to freely manipulate as necessary.
As it is, GHGs radiate upwards as much as they radiate downwards and I have seen no evidence that the two directions of emission do not cancel out. Since the vast majority of the atmosphere consists of non GHGs then GHGs actually provide a mechanism for cooling that non GHGs cannot provide so unless demonstrated otherwise I assume that the net effect of more GHGs is zero.
Be that as it may, if it were to be shown that the net effect of more GHGs is to make the atmosphere somewhat warmer then the only effect would be to accelerate other processes such as evaporation, conduction, convection, outward radiation and a faster or larger water cycle. Otherwise, the Gas Laws would be breached.
To achieve that faster throughput of energy the surface air pressure distribution and the position of the climate zones would need to shift a fraction but I have discussed elsewhere how vastly larger such shifts already occur naturally from variations in the behaviour of oceans and sun.
On the basis of the above, the radiative theories behind Anthropogenic Global Warming would appear to be incorrect as regards the addition of any extra energy to the whole Earth system but MAY be correct (if the amount of energy sent downward exceeds the value of energy sent upward) in terms of a miniscule climate effect from a change in the surface pressure distribution and a consequent shift in the climate zones.
Separately, it appears that the proposed positive effect from more water vapour in the air as a result of more GHGs is likely to be incorrect since there has been no sign of increasing global humidity during the late 20th century period of a slightly warming troposphere.
If anything, the Earth system response to more GHGs would appear likely to be negative as I have proposed.
A positive water vapour response to more GHGs was always implausible because more water vapour would lead to more warming and more water vapour then more warming ad infinitum. In the past there has been much more CO2 and much more warmth without that outcome.
There are also problems with the surface temperature measuring system as a result of compromised sensor locations and urban heat island effects plus numerous ‘adjustments’ to past data which seem not to have been fully recorded or justified.
How it must work in practice.
We need to get away from the idea that no work is being done where a gas which is receiving solar energy is situated within a gravitational field. Roy Spencer has made a big mistake in saying that there is a once and for all compression with no work done thereafter. Lots of other highly qualified scientists say just that.
They seem to forget that molecules of gas that are receiving solar energy vibrate, moving in ALL directions, by virtue of their kinetic energy which is why they are in gaseous form and not a solid.
Adding solar energy is what makes them zip about to form a gas in the first place and the more solar input the more they zip about.
The power source is the solar input. Switch it off and gravity succeeds in pulling down all the molecules so that the gas forms a solid on the surface once more.
The sun adds the necessary power, work is done as the molecules vibrate and infrared heat energy becomes highest where gravity has placed most molecules available to participate in the process, at the surface. The weight of the whole atmosphere places greatest pressure and greatest molecular density at the surface.
So, at that point we have solar input, the surface pressure and the surface temperature all in balance. Change any one of them and the point of equilibrium changes as per the Gas Laws.
However, on a planet with an open sky there is also the volume of the atmosphere to consider. That volume will be related directly to the total system energy content.
As soon as one changes system energy content by however small an amount the volume of the atmosphere will change instantly to keep the other numbers the same UNLESS one also alters the pressure at the surface AND/OR the level of solar input. Those two factors will change the equilibrium temperature because they increase the total amount of interaction going on between air molecules and insolation at the surface.
GHGs alter system energy content a fraction so the volume of the atmosphere changes by a fraction but because there is no increase in surface pressure and no increase in solar input then the change in atmospheric volume instantly cancels the effect of the GHGs on surface temperature by shifting the entire atmosphere upward leaving less molecules near the surface to participate in the interaction with solar energy.
The difference is that GHGs only affect the timing and location of the throughput of energy and NOT the total amount of interaction between air molecules and solar energy.
GHGs slow down energy loss to space but the increase in atmospheric volume simply dissipates it instantly and in the process the global circulation of the air shifts a miniscule fraction as a result of the increased volume of the atmosphere.
The same thing happens in response to ANY change other than increased surface pressure or increased solar input.
Hence the Venus/Earth observations and the curve fit shown by N & Z.
Summary.
Neither the Earth nor the Earth’s atmosphere can be treated as black bodies:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_body
To give black body status to Earth you have to take a point beyond the atmosphere as the ‘surface’ and only then apply the relevant equations for ascertaining surface temperatures:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stefan%E2%80%93Boltzmann_law
Furthermore, treating Earth and its atmosphere as two black bodies separated by a vacuum is wholly inappropriate because the Earth and its atmosphere are a single unit interacting primarily via non radiative processes which is where the Gas Laws come in.
Due to the governing factors of surface pressure and solar input the only relevant transfer of energy to and from atmosphere and surface involves the non radiative process of conduction plus a tiny amount of radiation from the GHGs just at or above the surface.
Conduction from the solar irradiated surface supplies the energy for convection and evaporation which together facilitate the transfer of energy from surface to space, in the process being well able to negate any radiative effects from changes in atmospheric composition.
Additional support is supplied by horizontal air mass movements such as the development and equatorward migration of features such as the ‘Mobile Polar Highs’ described by Marcel Leroux. Atmospheric events such as those have a substantial impact on sea surface / surface air temperatures.
The radiative characteristics of GHGs are neutralized within the system by:
i) The ability of GHGs to radiate directly out to space and
ii) The ability of the atmosphere to reconfigure itself by altering the surface pressure distribution thereby adjusting the rate of energy flow from surface to space.
If the radiative characteristics of GHGs were not neutralised then the Gas Laws would not apply and the concept of the Standard Atmosphere would not work. I suggest that readers Google the Standard Atmosphere and acquaint themselves with its characteristics. Aviation, in particular, relies on it being valid.
So, for bodies separated by a vacuum, apply the Stefan Bolzmann equations but only at a point outside any atmospheres where radiative processes do indeed dominate exclusively.
For bodies not separated by a vacuum, such as a planet and its atmosphere, apply the Gas Laws because non radiative processes dominate by holding the balance of the net energy flow within their control.






tallbloke
“Entropic, you’re not confusing the transfer of energy with heat are you?
On average the net radiation flux is upwards, away from the surface towards space. Downwelling infrared cannot on average heat the surface of the Earth.
Agreed?”
Not at all. Radiation transfers energy. Heat is the energy stored in a material.
DWIR cannot produce a direct heating effect. That would create energy from nothing!
DWIR redirects a proportion of the outgoing energy by re-radiation back towards the surface, effectively slowing the surface cooling rate.
This increment of extra downward radiation raises the stored heat in the surface, increasing surface temperature. This leads to increased outward radiation. The system reaches equilibrium at the temperature at which the surface pruduces enough extra outward radiation to cancel out the insulating effect of the GHG producing the DWIR. The outgoing radiation at the top of the atmosphere remains the same as the insolation once equilibrium has been reached.
My point addressed the problem of transferring energy from a cooler atmosphere to a hotter surface, as on Venus. Convection or conduction can only transfer heat from a hotter to a colder medium, from surface to atmosphere.
You need a way to transfer the radiated energy from the surface back to the surface. Radiation can transfer energy in both directions.
“DWIR redirects a proportion of the outgoing energy by re-radiation back towards the surface, effectively slowing the surface cooling rate”
In the absence of GHGs ALL energy in the atmosphere must get back to the surface before it can be radiated to space.The reason being that non GHGs cannot radiate ANYTHING (or very little) out to space.
Therefore the net effect of GHGs must be to send LESS back to the surface given that a portion is radiated out to space directly INSTEAD of having to be routed back to the surface and thence to space.
“You need a way to transfer the radiated energy from the surface back to the surface”
No, you need a way to get all the incoming solar energy back out to space.
GHGs make it easier and faster by adding upward radiation from the atmosphere to the suite of available methods.
The primary means of returning energy to the surface is via compression of descending air. If GHGs have radiated a slice directly out to space then less energy needs to be transferred back to the surface and the cycle of decompression on the day side and compression on the night side can slow down.
Steven: This is the graph form the article I linked:
http://www.skepticalscience.com/images/harries_radiation.gif
Caption: Change in spectrum from 1970 to 1996 due to trace gases. ‘Brightness temperature’ indicates equivalent blackbody temperature (Harries 2001).
Source: http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v410/n6826/abs/410355a0.html
What they found was a drop in outgoing radiation at the wavelength bands that greenhouse gases such as carbon dioxide (CO2) and methane (CH4) absorb energy. The change in outgoing radiation is consistent with theoretical expectations. Thus the paper found “direct experimental evidence for a significant increase in the Earth’s greenhouse effect”.
And further: http://www.skepticalscience.com/images/Greenhouse_Spectrum.gif
Source: http://ams.confex.com/ams/Annual2006/techprogram/paper_100737.htm
This is the spectrum that is measuring the Backradiation arriving at our surface.
It shows the attribution of the various GG in the backradiation. The H2O backradiation has been subtracted to show the contribution of the GG that remains.
These two measured spectra show a) that energy is missing in the outgoing radiation and b) that is is consistent with the spectra bands arriving at the surface.
I can’t comment on your graph above (the PNG file) as you provided no source references for it.
Stephen: you said above “In the absence of GHGs ALL energy in the atmosphere must get back to the surface before it can be radiated to space.The reason being that non GHGs cannot radiate ANYTHING (or very little) out to space.”
[snip]If you had no GHGs in the atmosphere the Earth’s surface would radiate its energy very efficiently to space and the average temperatures on the planet would be too cold to support life as we know it. There would be very little heat energy from the atmosphere to worry about.
[snip]
The fact that we have CHGs prevents the Earth surface to radiate efficiently to space as a significant amount of the outgoing radiation is reflected back. The more GHGs you add the stronger the effect becomes.
[Moderation note] Condescension removed. – TB
[Reply] The 9% increase in airborne co2 since ~1996 hasn’t had any effect. Why is that?
Stephen, 9 out of the 10 hottest years ever recorded where in the last decade. The arctic ice cap is close to vanishing in summer and the ocean heat content is rising relentlessly. So how can you say there was no effect since 1996.
Again for the benefit of your readers: http://www.skepticalscience.com/
[Moderation note] The linked site contains cooked up plots. Watch the Y axes labelling.
No statistically significant warming since 1996 is the observation of the MET office (and Prof Phil Jones of UEA CRU).
“If you had no GHGs in the atmosphere the Earth’s surface would radiate its energy very efficiently to space ”
What about energy conducted from surface to air and whisked upward by convection and in the process converted to gravitational potential energy ?
Whilst in the atmosphere it cannot be radiated out to space or to the surface.
It has to come back to the surface at some later time by some mechanism doesn’t it ?
So even with a non GHG atmosphere the energy returning to the surface via reconversion of gravitational potential energy to kinetic energy will keep the surface warmer than it would be in the absence of an atmosphere.
The presence of GHGs makes it easier not harder for energy to radiate out but that doesn’t matter either way.
Whether GHGs make it easier or harder, there is simply a change in the air circulation and volume of the atmosphere instead of a rise in surface temperature.
It is the kinetic energy / gravitational potential energy loop that keeps the atmosphere in place and makes the surface warmer than it otherwise would be if there were no atmosphere.
You could say that gravitational potential energy is what supports the atmosphere above the surface.
Such energy is unavailable to the radiative energy exchange until it is reconverted to kinetic energy.
Stephen: There is no net transfer of potential gravitational energy in our atmosphere. For every Kg of air going up, there is another Kg of gas going down somewhere else and no NET energy is moved this way at all. The atmosphere is “supported” by the pressure gradient. Pressure is a function of the Atmospheres temperature.
Convection currents do move heat upwards and contribute to the heat transfer in the atmosphere but only to about 5% of the energy flow from the Earth’s surface. A large part is transferred as latent heat of evaporation to the cloud layer. The bulk of Earths outgoing IR radiation is generated at around -18C or 255K, which is the black body equivalent average temperature of the Earth. You can see that most radiation to space is therefore generated at temperatures found in regions higher up in the atmosphere. Only a small percentage of our energy flow is directly passing through the atmosphere in form of IR transmission.
A good read for you and your readers is this: http://www.eoearth.org/article/Energy_balance_of_Earth
As far as the http://www.skepticalscience.com/ site, it is doing a good job at pointing out the cooking of evidence and data committed by others. You will find all their analysis is backed up with citations of sources of actual scientists work.
As far as the “Earth has not warmed since 1996″ story, have a look at this:
http://www.skepticalscience.com/print.php?n=895
[Reply]From the link: “According to the University of East Anglia (UEA) data (HadCRUT), the average surface temperature has warmed 0.12°C since 1996 – it may not be statistically significant, but…”
But it’s been falling since 2005.
Stephen: What people believe or not is their own responsibility. Some choose to actually look at the evidence. Others cherry pick results to support their beliefs.
[URL snipped]
And here is a concise taxonomy of peoples beliefs, addressed by science:
[URL snipped]
[Reply] This is not armchair psychology corner. I’m sorry, but we’re busy here and don’t have time to deal with dullards. Thanks for playing, now goodbye.
I cannot see anything in the gas laws or the first law of thermodynamics that prevent greenhouse gasses from absorbing radiation at one wavelength and re-radiating at another typically longer wavelength. As some of this radiation is radiated downwards (i.e. is back radiation) then it is entirely reasonable that any gas might play a role, secondary to the sun, in setting the temperature of the Earth’s surface and atmosphere by physics which lies outside these laws. Here comes the “but”:
But two things we must take into consideration are:
1) That GHGs do not just “back radiate” they are also better than non-GHGs and the Earth’s surface at converting thermal energy into radiation.
2) The gas laws and the first law of thermodynamics do fix the lapse rate.
Now the energy interactions at the Earth’s surface and lower troposphere due to radiation transfers, conduction, convection and latent heat of evaporation, condensation etc. are very complicated and it would be very easy to get swamped by the complexity of what is happening and end up taking a warmist or skeptical position.
The way to get a handle on all of this is to look simply at the outgoing radiation budget of the Earth which must on long term average equal the incoming radiation budget from the sun. It is much simper this way as radiation is the only way the planet can lose thermal energy to balance the books and there are no feedbacks from space. Now:
We know from (1) above that GHGs will add significantly to this outgoing radiation so that the more GHGs we have in the atmosphere the more outgoing radiation there will be for a given temperature. However as the incoming and outgoing radiation budgets must balance the outgoing radiation must be reduced in the event that more GHGs are injected into the atmosphere and this can only be achieved by reducing the temperature of those parts of the atmosphere radiating out into space. In fact outgoing radiation from both GHGs and non-GHGs will decrease as temperatures fall.
Now because of multiple absorption and emission events lower down in the atmosphere dominate most of the radiation leaving the planet originates from emission events in the upper atmosphere and so GHGs make the upper atmosphere cool – even the IPCC say this. Now by (2) above, as the thermal gradient is constant a cooler upper atmosphere means a cooler lower atmosphere (and because of the interactions with the Earth’s surface a cooler surface to the Earth) – something the IPCC doesn’t say.
So while I believe in the existence of back radiation and likewise the ability of both GHGs and non-GHGs to radiate into space and thus cool the planet at different rates it does seem to me entirely clear that GHGs produce cooling of the Earth and not warming. Small changes in CO2 concentrations make little difference to global temperatures which is fortunate as we are moving into cooler climes.
Anyway, here we have someone who not only believes in “back radiation” but also believes that GHGs cool the planet. Imagine that!
A little addition to my last post:
Note that while I believe in “back radiation” which is as I understand it is due to the Earth’s surface being heated by shorter wavelength radiation coming in from the sun and then being re-emitted at longer wavelengths which are in turn absorbed and re-emitted by GHGs, some in a downwards direction, it is interesting to consider what would happen if this single back radiation mechanism were absent.
First of all we mutate our black body Earth so that it absorbs but does not re-emit. In this case the Earth’s surface is cooled by convection and conduction and latent heat of evaporation to the lower atmosphere. In fact this is the predominant method by which cooling of the Earth’s surface happens anyway. I have seen figures of between 80% and 99% in various places.
But what happens then? Well ignoring the non-radiation thermal equilibrium dynamics between the surface and the atmosphere we know that GHGs cool quickly as they are good at converting thermal energy into radiation so hey presto! What do we get? More “back-radiation”! I do not know which is the most potent form of back-radiation, but from the Lapse Rate Law as discussed above I do not need to. GHGs cool the planet.
So you see back radiation does exists but in the warmist world only the fully radiation based form. Similarly by denying the existence of back radiation (and therefore “forward radiation”) the skeptics will never be able to falsify the AGW hypothesis.
Stay cool!
(Sorry about the ‘d’ word)
Sometimes I am a complete idiot! This should be my last post..
In the last addition I said “I do not know which is the most potent form of back-radiation”… but on reflection I think they are both exactly the same. After all we are talking about equal amounts of energy in equal amounts of time (albeit with a temporal phase lag). Both are re-radiated isotropicaly by gasses so both produce exactly the same amount of back radiation.
What this means is that the back radiation of the Warmists is not an additional thermal input to the Earth’s surface simply an alternate route! For every additional Watt of warmist back radiation the Earth’s surface receives one less Watt of Coolist (lets call it) back radiation! The two cancel exactly!
What an idiot I am.
Ye Gods. I have accidentally falsified the AGW hypothesis in the coolist possible way and all before dinner.
I am going to allow myself an extra beer tonight.
Cheers everybody and….
Stay Cool!
Eco-geek
Samoht said:
“There is no net transfer of potential gravitational energy in our atmosphere. For every Kg of air going up, there is another Kg of gas going down somewhere else and no NET energy is moved this way at all. The atmosphere is “supported” by the pressure gradient. Pressure is a function of the Atmospheres temperature.”
Of course there is no net transfer.
The kinetic energy converted to potential gravitational energy is the same on the way up as it is on the way down.
However the going up and coming down takes TIME and during that time an amount of kinetic energy is in the form of potential gravitational energy tied up in the atmospheric loop and therefore unavailable for radiative (or any other) transfer.
Pressure under an open sky is a function only of mass and gravity. For it to be a function of temperature too one needs an enclosed container.
The atmosphere is supported by solar energy. No solar energy and it falls to the ground. Less solar energy and it reduces in height.
There is always ever present in the atmosphere a quantity of potential gravitational energy which is invisible to radiative physics.
It is the failure to properly account for the swapping of energy between kinetic and potential gravitational energy that has caused the problem.
AGW theory takes the surface temperature BEFORE the kinetic energy at the surface has been converted by rising air to potential gravitational energy but takes the top of atmosphere temperature AFTER kinetic energy at the top of the atmosphere has been converted by rising air to potential gravitational energy.
That leads to an accounting error.
If one takes the potential gravitational energy out of the loop on both sides of the equation instead of adding it to one side and deducting it from the other then the numbers balance and S-B is satisfied.
You cannot mix and match solar energy in and longwave energy out with kinetic to potential gravitational.
They must be treated as separate energy processing loops.
Ok, so it wasn’t quite my last post. There is something else I should explain…
It would be possible to interpret my last post as just saying that GHGs produce additional back radiation by either mechanism which is true . OK so what happens if we remove GHGs from the atmosphere? Well the back radiation rate goes down obviously but then so does the forward radiation rate and the outgoing radiation budget falls short. This of course will mean the Earth’s surface and atmosphere will warm up until equilibrium is restored with more back radiation and more forward radiation.
You see back radiation doesn’t cause global warming, global warming causes back radiation.
Stay cool!
Eco.
It is the conversion of gravitational potential energy to kinetic energy as air descends through the atmospheric column that heats the surface. Not backradiation.
So called back radiation is simply the temperature of the molecules at the surface.
Stephen,
I am not sue whether you are questioning my definition or saying that gasses do not radiate in a downward direction.
If my definition is wrong then I am lost otherwise I believe gasses do radiate in a downward direction (as well as up) but as discussed in my posts the there is no net warming of the Earth as a result. Indeed my equalising of the two methods of producing back radiation is not quite right as GHGs do not intercept all wavelengths and so what I understand to be “warmist back radiation” is not as potent as “coolist back radiation” which if I drivel on means that GHG fully radiation based feedback is less effective at warming a warmist world than that convectively sourced back radiation. In other words what I take to be the warmist position is self-defeated.
Anyway I’m going for a beer but would appreciate a better understanding of the definitions.
Stay cool!
“No statistically significant warming since 1996 is the observation of the MET office (and Prof Phil Jones of UEA CRU).”
Tallbloke.
At the warming rate shown between 1960 and 2003, and with the level of short term variability shown by the Hadcrut data, it takes a minimum of 17 years of data to show with 95% confidence that a change has occured.
The Met Office probably mean that the period since 1996 is too short to see statistically significant change.
You have chosen to interpret it as saying that no warming has taken place.
The temperature graph has shown a flatter slope since 2003, but it will take until at least 2020 before it can be demonstrated to be statistically significant, even assuming it continues to stay flat.
[Reply] Why speculate to obfuscate Entropic? Lucia crunched the numbers to prove the ‘not significant’ finding in 2010, and it has cooled since… Give it up, you are on a loser with this one.
http://rankexploits.com/musings/2011/statistical-significance-since-1995-not-with-hadcrut
tallbloke
“Why speculate?”
Lucia quotes her t calculation for Hadcrut4 1995-2009 as giving a probability of 0.513. That’s a probability of 94.87% . For Hadcrut3, given the same assumptions she gets p<0.05 (exact figure unspecified) and a probability over 95%.
My basic point stands. At latter 20th century rates of change and variability you need a couple of decades of data before you can reliably say much about the statistical significance of any pattern in the global temperature record. The 15 years used in her calculation are a marginal timespan, with very small changes in the data or the assumptions being enough to push the p value above or below 0.05.
That, stripped of the subleties, is what Dr. Jones was saying:-
“The trend over the period 1995-2009 was significant at the 90% level, but wasn’t significant at the standard 95% level that people use,” Professor Jones told BBC News.
“Basically what’s changed is one more year [of data]. That period 1995-2009 was just 15 years – and because of the uncertainty in estimating trends over short periods, an extra year has made that trend significant at the 95% level which is the traditional threshold that statisticians have used for many years.
“It just shows the difficulty of achieving significance with a short time series, and that’s why longer series – 20 or 30 years – would be a much better way of estimating trends and getting significance on a consistent basis.”
[Reply] If you’re right, then we shouldn’t treat the warming from 1980 to 2000 as being particularly significant either.
Take a look at the Hadcrut3 graph here.
http://www.metoffice.gov.uk/research/monitoring/climate/surface-temperature
The 5-year mean graph has 95% confidence limits shown. You probably know the inspection method for estimating significance in such data. Pick the two years of interest and compare the 95% confidence limits for the 5-year means. If they do not overlap, the difference between the means ls likely to be significant.
You would need to do the maths to be sure, but the 1980 and 2000 means look significantly different by this quick and dirty test.