Force orientation in our part of the galaxy

Posted: January 18, 2010 by tallbloke in Uncategorized

If you are wondering where the big  thread ‘Meet the new Kepler’ on Semi’s paper has gone it’s here. You can always get to it or any other post by going to the ‘Archives’ on the right of the page. Detailed discussion of planetary motion is now continuing here.

Solar system orientation

It’s difficult  to get a handle on the ways forces acting on and in the solar system are orientated. This thread will raise more questions than answers about the origin and  magnitude of the forces, but it might help with the orientation issues. The solar system is apparently orbiting the Milky Way galaxy at around 224km/s.

On the larger scale, as well as the movement shown in this graphic, Dr Leif Svalgaard informs me that according to his way of measuring velocity and distance, there is a motion of 627km/s of the galaxy “towards the centre of the local group”.

Additionally, there is the motion of the of the Local Interstellar Cloud, which is depicted here as moving in the direction of the south celestial pole. Dayton Miller in the 1920’s, confirmed by Yu. Galaev in 2002,  concluded that the Earth was drifting at a speed of 208 km/sec. towards an apex in the Southern Celestial Hemisphere, towards Dorado, the swordfish, right ascension 4 hrs 54 min., declination of -70° 33′, in the middle of the Great Magellanic Cloud and 7° from the southern pole of the ecliptic. It seems possible therefore, that the solar system is headed in a similar direction to the LIC, in addition to it’s orbital motion wrt the galaxy. However, it is also thought that the solar system will soon be leaving the LIC and heading into a colder cloud. Perhaps someone here can clarify which direction we are heading out of the Local Cloud in.

Motion of solar system

Motion of solar system. Adapted from Alexander et al 2007

The planets orbit the sun at approximately 45 degrees wrt the direction of the solar system’s galactic orbital motion, as evidenced by the angle the band of the  milky way makes in the night sky, remembering the Earth is inclined a further 23.5 degrees to the invariant plane (the average of the planetary orbital planes). It is thought that this tilt is necessary in order to maintain the conservation of angular momentum as the solar system moves in it’s orbital path round the galaxy.

Solar System Schematic 1/2010

Within the solar system, the Sun has it’s ‘head back’. That is, the Solar polar axis is tilted at around seven degrees to the invariant plane, with the north solar pole tilted away from the direction of the solar system’s motion around, and slightly towards the galactic centre. At the moment, Jupiter Uranus and Neptune are  below the solar equatorial plane and ‘leading’ the sun in the direction of the nose of the heliosphere, and Saturn is opposite, above the solar equatorial plane, and trailing ‘behind’ the Sun,

HCS and Ribbon of ENS at heliosheath

HCS and Ribbon of ENS at heliosheath

Vukevic has prepared this graphic which represents the orientation of the newly discovered ‘ribbon’ on the outer edge of the heliosphere, compared to the heliospheric current sheet (HCS) as depicted by Caltec, and has some ideas about it’s cause he’d like to discuss in a reasonable environment.

Have at it Vuk!

  1. tallbloke says:

    I’m not sure I’ve got all of this right, so feel free to offer corrections!

  2. vukcevic says:

    Sorry boys. I am away for few days, no frequent access to internet.

  3. tallbloke says:

    No worries Vuk, I doubt the huge ribbon of excited particles on the outer edge of the heliosheath is about to evaporate.
    Have a good trip.

  4. vukcevic says:

    Hi everyone,
    Had a quick scroll down the WUWT thread and see there was a very lively and extensive discussion going on the subject. Will need some tome to digest it all, first instinct is that the subject was extremely well scrutinised

  5. tallbloke says:

    Hi Vuk,
    well, yes and no. The topic veered off somewhat. I’m wondering about the cause of the asymmetry of the ribbon round the ‘nose’ of the heliosheath, and it’s orientation. An indication maybe that the solar system is indeed drifting south as well as orbiting the galaxy as Dayton Miller deduced from his Aether drift experiments in 1926.

  6. jack morrow says:

    I’m just a regular guy with a science degree and retired pilot. I don’t have the background you guys do but if I had it to do over I might have been an astronomist. Anyway,this is ot a little but I believe all of the local groups were headed towards a “great attractor”. Whatever happened to that?

  7. tallbloke says:

    Hi Jack,

    Well, NASA did this nice image for us.

    But I can’t find the arrow on it which says

    “You are here” 🙂

    You can read about it here:

    Personally, I think there is more to redshift than meets the eye. Halton Arp’s research suggest that redshift (Used via the Hubble constant to determine distance in the standard cosmology) may be a function of the age of the galaxies emitting the light we see coming from them rather than the distance they are from us. If he’s right, all the standard cosmology needs looking at again. Of course, it could be that the further away stuff is, the longer the light takes to reach us, so that light set off form those galaxies when they were much younger than they are now.

    Arp conjectured that some quasars with very high redshifts seem to be young proto-galaxies which have been ejected from the poles of older galaxies with lower redshifts. If he’s right, high redshift objects may be younger and closer to us rather than further away and receding faster due to a ‘Big Bang’.

    However, this seems to conflict with other lines of evidence, so it’s a puzzle in progress.

  8. P.G. Sharrow says:

    Red shift may be due to lose of energy, angular momentum or spin, in the carrier quanta. Hubble’s constant is not all that constant and has been in question for quite some time.

  9. tallbloke says:

    P.G. – Yes, for one thing, there is a lot of free hydrogen out there, and when it forms molecules of H2, it becomes invisible to our telescopes and spectral detectors. It is conjectured that collisions of photons with H2 molecules could cause redshift as the photons are re-emitted forwards to wards us.

    Hubble’s “constant” gets changed more frequently than my pants it seems. 🙂

  10. Paul Vaughan says:

    It has been suggested to me that I should have a look at the following 117 page article with 614 references:

    Kudela, K. (2009). On energetic particles in space. Acta Physica Slovaca 59(5), 537-652.

    Click to access aps-09-05.pdf

    I had time to take a look at chapter 4 — interesting.

    Although I don’t have time to give the whole document a thorough read, I suspect some of you might be interested in traveling that road, so I provide the reference.

    Please let me know if you find anything that looks like it might depend on EOP (polar motion, LOD, nutation) and global circulation (GLAAM, QBO, etc.).

  11. Tenuc says:

    Good stuff TB, another interesting thread with difficult questions – the relative motions of many bodies moving in differing directions, with differing speeds, with differing orientations id difficult to solve.

    I suspect that both the temperature and density and velocity within the interstellar gas clouds is infinitely variable at all scales.

    I also notice that when the sun sets it turns a nice shade of red…

    It will be interesting to see what Vuk comes up with???

  12. tallbloke says:

    Hi Tenuc,
    I think Vuk has abandoned his earlier idea that the ribbon might be the heliospheric current sheet impinging on the edge of the Heliosphere.

    To me, the shape is more reminiscent of a bow wave made by a ship as it ploughs through the sea. So much to learn…