Solar rotation speed and sunspot asymmetry

Posted: August 24, 2010 by tallbloke in solar system dynamics

I am lucky to have such great contributions from my regular visitors. I’m trying to get te parameters right for my investigation of the relationship between planetary alignments and solar activity To help get a handle on changes in solar activity, visualisation of the data is all important. Tim C and M Vukcevic have come up with the goods.

Here is Tim’s plot of the F10.7 radio flux (a strong indicator of solar activity level) in the vertical axis, against time over six solar cycles from 1947 to 2010, against solar rotation speed. This is still work in progress, I’m hoping Tim will tell us more about the history of the satellites and proxy records this data comes from, and how he has worked with the data to produce this fabulous 3D plot:


Vuk has this plot (originally from David Hathaway I think) of the asymmetry in sunspot production between the two solar hemispheres:

sunspot asymmetry

I hope Vuk will tell us more about the formula he has developed which relates to planetary motion and encapsulates the north-south dominant periods.

Vuk also has this intiguing plot of the sunspot production areas of the sun which seem to display an inhomogeneity:

solar longitude

He says the ‘lump’ slowly rotates on a decadal scale. What causes that??

The two solar hemispheres have some distinct characteristics, and hopefully, we might get some clues about regime changes in solar wind speed and solar rotation speeds at various latitudes through consideration and discussion of these plots. Pinning down these two variables is key to an accurate comparison of planetary alignments and solar activity.

  1. Stephen Wilde says:

    Interesting material.

    I’m satisfied that the level of solar activity has an effect on the tropospheric pressure distribution via an effect on the energy flux to space through variations in the flow of energy through the different layers of the atmosphere.

    Being able to anticipate changes in the level of solar activity would be a valuable addition to the scenario.

    Wonder what Leif Svalgaard would make of this ?

  2. tallbloke says:

    When we have produced a solidly documented outcome with a sufficiently hi R^2 factor, Leif will comment – to tell us it is nonsense. 🙂

    What I want from this thread is some more clues as to pinning down historical rotation figures. Also, I think we may find a correlation between sunspot asymmetry and barycentric motion if we try harder. That may help us develop a Vukcevic style equation I can plug into my electro-magnetic planetary alignment hypothesis to simulate long term rotation change.

  3. Tim Channon says:

    Commenting on Vuk’s (hope the abbreviation is not offensive) content, another view of the latitude asymmetry is here, shorter timespan
    This might assist interpretation.

    The NASA/Greenwich dataset ( contains sunspot position as well as area.

  4. tallbloke says:

    On WUWT:
    Geoff Sharp says:
    August 24, 2010 at 5:10 pm

    Interesting Vuk, I record the Carrington Longitude of all recurring regions on the Layman’s page. The “bump” as displayed in your link lines up precisely with “region 1″ that has been the most active recurring region with the largest spot area’s of SC24 (1035,1040,1045)

  5. tallbloke says:

    Tim, yes, that’s the data I played with last year. I’ll dig out the graphs I made showing regime changes in N.S. sunspot production. They show the same thing as Vuk/Hathaway’s graph in a different way. By the way, Vukcevic often posts as ‘Vuk etc’ so I think he is comfortable with the name shortening.
    Here’s the graph you linked:
    sunspot asymmetry

  6. vukcevic says:

    Just a quick note: Vuk is abbreviation introduced by Dr. S. It is Slavic translation of Germanic Wolf (Vukcevic ~ Wolfson)

  7. vukcevic says:

    Time is at premium as ever. Until I come back here some points:
    N/S asymmetry chart is from SIDC, Greenwich also has area data file.
    The equation ‘indicating’ preferred hemisphere (here just part of the graph) is the general anomaly equation
    The sunspot longitudinal distribution chart is based on a data file SDJ (from SC24) produced by researching Debrecen records, there is an extensive discussion on SC24 including Dr. Svalgaard’s contributions.

  8. tallbloke says:

    Thanks for the notes, Vuk 😉

  9. Geoff Sharp says:

    Vuk and I are working off the same base data, which goes back 2 years. This may not go back far enough to establish an internal recurring “blip”.

    The data is available via Debrecen, but requires someone to do the leg work.

  10. A theoretical source of radiation without any planets around would follow the radiuses (supposing this is possible without any polarity, as Miles Mathis proposes), however with the planets present there are changes in the distribution of the Sun´s EM field. Now, these changes are expected to happen in three directions: x,y and z. Then we should consider the EM and gravity field of each planet. Quite a difficult problem, however the result, as projected on the plane is as shows the Ebrecen graph above. Evidently we are in need of a simpler approach.

  11. vukcevic says:

    Geoff Sharp says: August 25, 2010 at 12:55 pm
    Vuk and I are working off the same base data, which goes back 2 years. This may not go back far enough to establish an internal recurring “blip”.

    Hi Geoff
    NASA’s press release from February 1, 2000
    During the 11 1/2-year period from July 1964 through December 1975, high- and low-speed solar wind flows originated from preferred solar longitudes. The preferred longitude effect was most pronounced from 1970 onward but was also evident in the years preceding 1970. The most pronounced modulation in average solar wind speed with longitude (approximately 20%) was obtained when it was assumed that the synodic rotation period of the sun is 27.025 days.
    Some deep internal structure in the sun must ultimately be responsible for these long-lived longitudinal effects, which appear to rotate rigidly with the sun.

    Nearly 40 years ago Dr. S. wrote an article referring to sector SW magnetic polarity and found similar coincidence.
    His data file goes back to 1926 and is still meticulously updated
    (last entry 2010 08 18 2416(rot No) + + 0 – – – -, wich would make it 24/8/10)
    I made an attempt (while ago) to decipher latest part of it, it appears it confirms the effect.
    Rogyou may be also interested in:

  12. Semi says:

    I don’t seem to understand, how is the “Solar rotation period in days” axis data derived (in the 3D-chart) ?
    There is ultimatelly NO Solar rotation period of 22 days… Also the rotation depends on latitude…

    Which amplitude is it? (If it is Sunspot amplitude, then there are probably no Sunspots above 30-day level)

  13. tallbloke says:

    Semi, Tim said the amplitude was the F10.7 radio flux. There is a bit more description on the breakthrough thread.

    Mr Wolf Junior, thanks for pdf link, very useful for quoting at Leif for the statistical level of certainty! The phase synchronisation of the motion of the Sun around the barycenter and the sunspot cycle is the next part of the effort to acount for solar cycle amplitudes. This will compliment the previous discovery of the phase coherence of the Jupiter-Earth-Venus planetary alignments along the Interplanetary magnetic field and the solar cycles.

    Halfway to paradise.

  14. Tim Channon says:

    Tried some trickery here.

    Low pass filtered f10.7 to make a basic sunspot modulation signal.

    Then I amplitude modulated as an inverse the original with that.

    The idea is to suppress the long period change, then produced a detail solar rotation plot from the result, hopefully with detail in the troughs now clear.

    Presented flat as a colour map even though is 3d plot and yay, no long period modulation. 🙂
    Plot is shorter than the dataset, otherwise the analysis hangs over the ends.

    Point something out: has the look of accounting for the suppose global terrestrial temperature change. Can’t see that is rational but as a detail this stuff shows a different story from the whole ssn which is dominated by long period change.

    Rotating lump?
    Well, I think that demands synchronous demodulation. The above suggests there isn’t anything long term fixed. Would appear as a horizontal line. But what do I know?

  15. vukcevic says:

    I’ve just updated Dr.S’s magnetic polarity file for the last two years.

    It should be noted he uses 27 days rotation period, while actual period is 27.025 days; 40 rotations (3 years) ads extra day, which would introduce error of 13.3 degrees (for a 12 year cycle error is 53degrees). This could be corrected but I’ve have no time to do it. I wonder what he has done ?
    Solar wind takes about 3 to arrive, so above chart is advanced in respect of LS data by 3 days (40 degrees), to (approximately) coincide with the time it left the sun.

    tallbloke says: August 25, 2010 at 7:42 pm
    Mr Wolf Junior………

    Rog, I doubt that anyone is going to beat this one:

  16. Tim Channon says:

    Clarifying what you are looking at, a clear demo.

    This is the maximum daily temperature for Armagh Obs., NI and the point here is that the annual temperature variation appears as a line, or wall, at oddly enough 1 year. Just in front is the small second harmonic at 0.5y

    I don’t like the colours, default gnuplot but changing them to anything useful and less strident is tricky. (been there)
    Things such as rotate the Y label, nope, unavailable in 3D as png and .ps doesn’t work well. Usual tale of fighting software. My own plot stuff, life is too short.

  17. tallbloke says:

    🙂 Our Lupine friend says:

    Rog, I doubt that anyone is going to beat this one:
    vukcevic-solar cycles equation

    I like the unphysical one I came up with too. Pity I’ll have to wait 25 years to find out if it will carry on being accurate.
    rog cycles

  18. Tim Channon says:

    Semi, viewed as a normal period against amplitude plot the solar rotation signals are in f10.7 but are not huge signals. I’m now showing this as to use another descriptive used, a spectrogram.

    Why is there signal at other periods? No idea. Opening up to a wider frequency range shows lots of vague items and also second harmonic activity, which is also in the data. Maybe it is purely random noise.

    Put another way, you can look at the symphony recording on the wire as a wobbly line or try to decode it into components, a visualisation problem.

    There is a ~31 day thing too, with second harmonic. This seems distinct and different from the main solar rotation hump of periods.
    Also noticed some kind of step around 150 days with no idea where that comes from.
    I can probably put up some stuff if you want to see more.

  19. tallbloke says:

    vukcevic says:
    August 25, 2010 at 8:24 pm

    I’ve just updated Dr.S’s magnetic polarity file for the last two years.

    27 days is the standard Bartel rotation period.
    Leif co-wrote a paper in 1973 dealing with this:

    By the way Vuk, who was it who said:
    “Call me anything you like, just don’t call me early in the morning”?

  20. P.G. Sharrow says:

    VUKCEVIC; Thankyou for the extra work to extend your solar graphs. The period 1700 to 1800 include a very poor weather “climate” time 1740 to 1810 that may be simular to the next period 2000 to 2050.
    No balls, no babies. 😉 pg

  21. I have been following my hurricane prediction turn out, and getting carried away following comments closely on WUWT. You guys have made some good solid progress in here, only comment I can make to add anything;
    Adolfo Giurfa says:
    August 25, 2010 at 1:21 pm
    “”however with the planets present there are changes in the distribution of the Sun´s EM field. Now, these changes are expected to happen in three directions: x,y and z. Then we should consider the EM and gravity field of each planet.””

    Reply; I would recommend not just looking at the standing permanent magnet fields of the planets, but I would think from my findings the total content of magnetically permeable material is the most important metric, as it allows the calculation of the total conductance of magnetic fields through the planetary body, in response to the varying solar wind or IMF flux density, where the residual semi-permanent magnet fields, are developed from the frozen in effects of past (dis)/orientations, forming a relatively weaker composite field that is in a state of transition at all times.

    Much as the residual permanent fields on a transformer when the power is off, does not reflect on it’s normal load capacity, or efficiency of frequency transfer, inductive resistance, or band width.

    (You can call me in the morning, IF the coffee and breakfast is ready) my personal favorite;-)

  22. Meerkat says:

    Hi Tallbloke,

    Thanks for the marriage proposal…the answer is YES!!


  23. Ulric Lyons says:

    The distribution of the peaks in Tim`s flux graph, can be mapped out well by taking 3 Venus/Mercury synodic periods of 144.5683 days (same as Chandler wobble period) ,
    and dividing by;
    11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20 and 21.

  24. tallbloke says:

    The brightest star in my firmament is coming into binary orbit 🙂

    Best news I’ve had this lifetime. 😀

  25. vukcevic says:

    P.G. Sharrow says: August 26, 2010 at 5:24 am
    VUKCEVIC; Thankyou for the extra work to extend your solar graphs. The period 1700 to 1800 include a very poor weather “climate” time 1740 to 1810 that may be simular to the next period 2000 to 2050.

    I think there is more to it than just the solar computable output.
    Just posted this:
    on WUWT with a comment you can see there:

  26. Tim Channon says:

    Someone call Chandler?

    Made this available.

    There is other stuff, fully accounting for this has been ongoing but I may as well show something.

    The longer period is notional, fits well enough, the real interest is the other terms. I’ve not entirely happy with the high res iers dataset, is filtered before we get it using non signal processing stuff. Also the accuracy of what are extremely difficult measurements is in some question.

    As such the Chandler wobble is too small to mean anything signficant yet it probably tells us about extraterrestrial forces on a spinning globe.

    This stuff is done using the other and more important software.
    If anyone wants the model of the data, works in a spreadsheet, ask, if it isn’t on disk can recreated it.

  27. tallbloke says:

    Vukcevic’s debrecan data graph of the longitudinal sunspot asymmetry reminded me of this graphic I used way back on the tides thread:
    solar oblateness

    I emailed the NASA scientist who produced it to ask for the helocentric longitude across the plot, but never got a reply. I wonder if the lumps are connected with Vuk’s ‘hotspots’.

  28. Tim Channon says:

    I seem to be at a loss for worthwhile words yet there seems a lot left hanging.

    The plot is saying the amplitude of radio emission at solar rotation frequencies mostly follows the general amplitude of the sunspot cycle.

  29. P.G. Sharrow says:

    Magnetic field force lines have flow as water in a hose. Out from the “south” and into the “north”. This causes oblateness, bulges and hollows in the shape of the sphereoid. Leif Svalgaard mentioned on WUWT that the magnetic lines of force tend to pin the suns surface rotation to the core. Stronger fields slow the over speed of the surface.
    I believe that magnetic fields and gravitation effects have some amount of connection. T. Townsen Brown proved that electrostatic charge fields can change the center of gravity of an object. While most of the effects on and in the earth are local, they are modified by the sun and the other planets. Maybe some day it will be accepted that magnetic and gravity fields are in constant change and effect the weather and surface movements.
    At least the people here are willing to entertain such thoughts. pg

  30. Tenuc says:

    P.G. Sharrow says:
    September 6, 2010 at 4:11 am
    “Maybe some day it will be accepted that magnetic and gravity fields are in constant change and effect the weather and surface movements.
    At least the people here are willing to entertain such thoughts. pg”

    That’s very profound, PG. Current science seeming refuses to see that what seems solid and permanent is a system that is actually in constant dynamic equilibrium with the rest of the universe and is forced to adapt as it dances to the tune of far larger gravitational, magnetic and electrical forces. Interesting that electricity and magnetism are intrinsically part of the same phenomenon. Perhaps gravity is also part of the same force?

  31. Tenuc says:
    September 8, 2010 at 10:21 pm
    Are you referring to this?:
    We are in need of a mechanics of a unified field. Though Miles Mathis has achieved to simplify all the physical mess in only two fields: An EM field and an accelartion field (gravity); I guess he will arrive to one single field.
    I have mentioned before that when dealing with chemical compounds, one and the same compound can be obtained (“born” like) of different bulk densities, where it is clearly observed that lower bulk densities relate to a higher static charge of individual particles.

  32. “LIFE forms are able to control the ionic and covalent bounds broken, changed, and formed in the process of photosynthesis that binds energy into the making of compounds to build plant structure, that all other life forms digest to extract that energy of these covalent bonds to control all cellular functions.

    In all cases where active building of compounds, from the basic constituents, are carried out in volume, there is a residual ionic charge carried out of the reaction area by electromagnetic conduction. In small single cell animals, their shapes are designed to most efficiently interface the internal EMF in a controlled way, to the external EMF that would modify or prevent the metabolism process, being conducted as needed by the animal to survive.

    In large mammals and people there develops whole tuned structures that interface between organs like the liver that builds and disassembles glycogen for the storage of sugars.

    The whole study of acupuncture, and the median lines of conduction woven through out the body is the result the study by those physically able to sense the EMF and coupling points on the skin surface, and at the same time understand the process of maintenance of the balance, phase, and polarity of total flux due to the whole continuum of life.

    So that the median lines are the shared pathway of the EMF that is controllably shunted out of the chemical reaction to allow the flexible shifts in efficiency needed to prevent uncontrolled runaway feedback or disease processes that cause death.

    Complex cells use semipermeable membranes, pores, vacuoles, and wall structure to do the bulk of the ion transfer related exchanges of the bulk materials. Homeostasis is an ever shifting balance between changing activity levels and internally regulated metabolic processes, and the outside chaos.

    Rapid swings in temperature, humidity, Ph balance, gas content of the air, radiation levels that can, through the processes of ionization, inhibit or destroy the covalent bonds needed to maintain optimum health. Maintaining an enclosed dwelling with more environmental balance, so heat / cold related stress, oxidants external and internal and the virus and bacteria that are always trying for optimum cohabitation, are defended against.

    All of these relationships are EMF in nature, and one should strive to be aware of their own inner balance and its relationship to the surrounding environment to maintain life energy levels close to optimum health.

    Most plants and animals are aware of that and stay in tune with “the balance of nature” stress and other socially generated distractions prevent humans from moving with ease with in this sea of EMF we are constantly awash in. To ignore that this sea exists, and we are able to swim through it at will more easily by going with the shifts in the flows as they happen, only increases the level of disease one encounters.

    To as a composite plant / animal biomass striving to maximum our total volume, it behooves us to be aware of how we can regulate our external environment, not just by avoidance of the problem areas, but by making changes in the background parameters that are outside of the optimum ranges for the whole biomass, not just in our dwellings.

    If we do not understand how the weather is driven by ions, EMF, tidal effects, solar output, and the relationships between them, we will never learn the difference between what needs to be done, from what can be done to better optimize the global environment to maximize the health of the whole biomass.

  33. P.G. Sharrow says:

    Richard Holle; nice essay on EMF connections. I see nothing that I can disagree with. pg

  34. tallbloke says:

    Adolfo, very interesting comment about chemical reactions and the borderline between chemistry and sub-atomic physics.

    Richard, fascinating essay: worthy of it’s own thread I think.

  35. Bart Leplae says:

    Published a paper covering several correlations between variations of the Sun Velocity (as influenced by the relative positions of the planets) and different aspects of the Solar Cycle, including: the Sun Spot Cycle, Polar Magnetic Field and asymmetry in sunspot production between the two solar hemispheres.

  36. tchannon says:

    That’s nice.

  37. […] speed and sunsp…adolfogiurfa on Massive swarm of earthquakes, …Bart Leplae on Solar rotation speed and sunsp…Bart Leplae on High confidence in faster than…tchannon on Massive swarm of earthquakes, […]