Breaking news helicopter heavily crashing into Glasgow pub on a Friday night.
I have heard sufficient to state this a police helicopter in fatal mechanical trouble, is embedded in the pub roof, with at least many injuries and probably fatalities. Thank goodness no fire.
Eye witnesses directly mentioned the distinctive markings on the tail and on the rotor, few others operate at night and over a city. A serial number was given, if correct, police. [Police Scotland confirmed early today that its aircraft was involved. The police helicopter is staffed by a civilian pilot and two officers.]
Less certain the rotor was not turning (press reporter eye witness).
May be a Eurocopter, operated by Strathclyde police
http://www.eurocopter.co.uk/site/en/ref/home.html
Update. I hope this is not distasteful, this might be the aircraft and has a crew of three.
http://www.ukemergencyaviation.co.uk/glasgowcityheliport/Based-Aircraft.htm
Update not trawling, seems confirmed police helicopter.
Far worse this appears to be a single story building and was holding a live music event, the pub was packed.
A number of fatalities are admitted and many more injured. People are trapped.
Our thoughts are with the casualties and families.
Post by Tim
Tallbloke's Talkshop 
There will be remembering 1990 when the police helicopter crashed in snow
http://www.heraldscotland.com/sport/spl/aberdeen/police-helicopter-crashes-after-clipping-city-flats-copter-was-waving-about-and-then-it-disappeared-1.593674
The police news conference at 3am confirmed absolutely but gave no details except 3 on board, 120 fire brigade personnel, specialists on the way and many other assisting.
No-one official is prepared to say anything about casualties but this is looking very serious. There is confirmation the building is unstable and whilst there are fire rescue people inside it seems there is contact with people inside but they cannot be accessed, after 4 hours with many on an easy site to access?
An interview with someone who was inside, knows the building and band who were playing has revealed a lot. In his option the body of the helicopter came down on the bar area “about a quarter of the building”. People were three deep at the bar, and of course bar staff. He said he saw the tail.
A lot of glass around, it’s a pub. Lets hope there were plastic glasses. Another reason why access, with lighting off is fraught.
Air accident are of course already involved. This is likely to lead to an immediate type grounding except in dire emergency. More than one has mentioned the “propeller” not turning, which points to gearbox failure.
Doing a quick check, EEK!
2008 report on EC135
http://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news/hai-convention-news/2008-02-24/eurocopter-recommends-ec-135-gearbox-oil-switch
EEK++, July 2013 FAA airworthiness directive EC135 on gearbox
http://ainonline.com/aviation-news/ainmxreports/2013-07-10/faa-proposes-ad-eurocopter-ec135-variants-main-gearbox
Now hub cracks.
2012
http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/easa-orders-urgent-checks-for-ec135-rotor-hub-cracks-372058/
Couldn’t wait to get a pint…
No fire, the engine stopped, is it possible they just ran out of gas?
kuhnkat says: November 30, 2013 at 5:35 am
“Couldn’t wait to get a pint…”
Don’t take the piss KK.
I live in Jaywick Sands, near Clacton-on-Sea, Essex. I hear Police ‘copters several times a week overhead (buggers the TV audio [not the ‘Digi UHF’ signal, or the sat com, but the audible ‘volume’ from the ‘copters rotors]). This ‘copter could’ve fallen on ‘my’ house!
Whilst I agree with a greater use of tec against crime, its use should be ‘safely’ downgraded when reducing payment for its procurement during ‘austerity’!
Best regards, Ray.
Having been critical of MP Jim Murphy on the previous post, he was on the scene at the pub crash site last night and when the BBC asked him about the blood on his shirt, he said ‘it’s not mine’.
Credit where it’s due for helping fellow citizens in distress.
sean, helicopters have something called autorotate, same as a gyrocopter but less effective, no engine power it enters glide[1] and typically will descend very fast under control.
I checked last night on the type, yes a T2 definitely can autorotate because that is confirmed in an air accident official report on an accident in England where a fault led the pilot to think the engines had failed and he went into emergency descent but failed to flare correctly on landing, tail boom hit the ground and it flipped on it’s side. No physical injury.
1. What I do not know is whether autorotate would work from loiter or hover as operated often by the police over built up areas at night.
oldbrew, I deliberately did not mention him after I spotted he got in front of the press, opened his mouth.
Yesterday in The House Mr Murphy wilfully conflated a [response report on a] disaster, the Typhoon, the subject of the debate and a personal agenda, environmentalism where it was patently clear from the house agenda there were plenty of opportunities, so I have zero time for him when he is near a disaster and getting attention.
[edit]
An MP being an opportunist – surely not 😉
“In normal powered flight, air is drawn into the main rotor system from above and exhausted downward, but during autorotation, air moves up into the rotor system from below as the helicopter descends. Autorotation is permitted mechanically because of both a freewheeling unit, which allows the main rotor to continue turning even if the engine is not running, as well as curved main rotor blades such that when the collective pitch is fully down the inner part of the blade has negative pitch relative to the horizontal plane and can be spun up by the relative wind. It is the means by which a helicopter can land safely in the event of complete engine failure. Consequently, all single-engine helicopters must demonstrate this capability to obtain a type certificate.[4]”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autorotation_(helicopter)
Auto rotation take a minimum altitude and/or forward speed. If you are hovering below 200m, it’s often not an option.
“No fire, the engine stopped, is it possible they just ran out of gas?”
There is a discussion on the pilots forum, PPRuNe, and several familiar with the type say this is extremely unlikely, as there are multiple stages of low fuel warning, and finally 2 separate reserve tanks – one for each engine – of different sizes. This is so one engine would fail before the other giving a few minutes of single engine operation – sufficient to try and find somewhere safe to put down. Apparently, it also has leak proof fuel “bladders” specifically to reduce the risk of fire in the event of an accident.
The same discussion pointed out that multi-engined helicopters don’t normally have the high inertia rotor systems typical on single engined types, as complete power failure is considered far less likely. This means that prompt lowering of the collective is crucial in the event of low rotor speed.
DaveW, wonderful site PPRuNe.
Good comment.
Initial figures 8 confirmed dead, 14 seriously injured.
The helicopter is blocking search and more bodies may be underneath. Lifting has yet to be done.
I read it as “are expected.”
Reports of many missing but a Friday night in Glasgow is not the most stable of times.
Police reports
http://www.scotland.police.uk/whats-happening/news/2013/december/major-incident-glasgow-update01122013/
http://www.scotland.police.uk/whats-happening/news/2013/december/police-helicopter-crew-is-identified/
http://www.scotland.police.uk/whats-happening/news/2013/december/major-incident-glasgow-update01122013/
Released information from a reasonable source
No Mayday was received
Descent was vertical (I’d treat that as maybe)
No flight recorder was carried (normal)
Nothing fell from the helicopter (presumably from observing the remains are intact)
The remains are being taken by road to Farnborough (30 miles from London) where Air Accident will carry out a detailed examination. These are always as long as it takes. (my involvement long ago was about continuing trying to unravel unknowns)
My guess is that there will be an enduring result involving either technical change or operational change, probably both.
UK Air Accidents Investigation Branch (AAIB)
http://www.aaib.gov.uk/home/index.cfm
News release page
http://www.aaib.gov.uk/latest_news/
Their reports are very readable.
The search is officially over
http://news.sky.com/story/1176481/glasgow-helicopter-crash-search-ends
Our condolences to all affected by this sad event.
[mod: multiple reliable eye witnesses give an extreme rate of descent, no chance that was controlled. Rotor was multiple reported stopped so yes the ducted tail rotor was not moving either, duct is protection. ABIB would have picked this up immediately, didn’t. You also have explain 3 dead occupants who would be in a cage on top of a small collapse. Comment rejected for your own good. –mod]
A simple look at the before, undamaged pub roof and streets tell you this was Pilot Error. Why do we know this (a) the Helicopter had landed, engine in cut off on the collective, and fuel pump off. (b) The rotor break was applied, no damage to the tail rotor. Then the overstressed roof collapsed and all the damage was done.
The helicopter weighed + 3 ton, which is a stretch for any flat roof, he could have set down in the street to the left rear.
[To mod, I have to take it that you are NOT an experienced helicopter pilot, nor have much experience of crash investigations. I have been flying helicopters for more than 40 years. and have attended many crash sites while in the service. Let me correct some things for you:
1. The worst grade of ‘evidence’ are ‘reliable eye witnesses’ often with camera phones see something different from their own photographs.
2. All experienced pilots go into negative collective pitch on engine failure, this keeps translational lift and stores energy in the rotor for the last second flare. This is a second-nature, emergency response practiced often, and tested at fitness-2-fly checks. Had the turbine been running, and fuel pump on there would have been a fire unless there was no fuel.
3. Film has now been shown of the crane-out of the main body, and broken tail section, in the DT and elsewhere.
These show (a) the rotors essentially intact, the boom broken off (b) the tail rotor damages but intact and (c) no damage consistent with a 110kt. vertical impact, which inter alia would have snapped the boom and crushed the cabin.
Unless the ‘reliable eye witnesses’ had seen multiple auto-rotaional emergency landings, and at night, would not have known what they were looking at as a good pilot will slip the flight path deliberately to minimize the ‘ring-vortex effect’.
Of course I may be wrong, but I don’t think so, but the AIB may tell us.]
mod: multiple reliable eye witnesses give an extreme rate of descent, no chance that was controlled. Rotor was multiple reported stopped so yes the ducted tail rotor was not moving either, duct is protection. ABIB would have picked this up immediately, didn’t. You also have explain 3 dead occupants who would be in a cage on top of a small collapse. Comment rejected for your own good. –mod]
A simple look at the before, undamaged pub roof and streets tell you this was Pilot Error. Why do we know this (a) the Helicopter had landed, engine in cut off on the collective, and fuel pump off. (b) The rotor break was applied, no damage to the tail rotor. Then the overstressed roof collapsed and all the damage was done.
The helicopter weighed + 3 ton, which is a stretch for any flat roof, he could have set down in the street to the left rear.
ombzhch: I saw a report which said auro-rotation procedure is difficult if failure occurs at low altitude. Is this because of the time required to re-orientate the rotor pitch?
Auto-rotation is the single most important thing a pilot must learn, within the first few hours of instruction, engines do fail, but this looked like a twin turbine, so it still has power on one. It is standard for the instructor to put the throttle in ground idle, and have the pupil land the chopper without re-applying power, this is normally done over an open field since translational lift helps immensely to slow rate of descent and fully pump the main rotor. You can tell (a) through your bottom, (b) rate of descent instrumentation and the engine/rotor RPM gauge, since the needles split.The AIB chap said the cockpit was well instrumented, so they may find out at least the power and collective setting.
But quite apart from that simple engineering tells you it can’t have been an uncontrolled crash, the bits would be spread over a 1/4 mile as they were by the Eurocopter-Crane crash in London yet the cabin-boom were mostly intact and you could see the tail rotor blades in the enclosure.
If the main and tail rotors had been spinning as the roof gave way they would be broken off and scattered everywhere, also if no auto-rotation had be done the impact would have been much greater and the blades would be vertical on their flapping hinges, except for the Bell-Beam (R) design, which this wasn’t.
To answer your question specifically, as things go wrong, engine or gearbox failure, the blades are spinning and generating lift, only if you let them slow do you loose translational lift which is why you go negative collective, in 1/5-1/2 of a second to use your height, and the remaining rotor energy for a last second check to the descent. On both take off and landing you need routinely to stay out of the dead-man’s zone and especially not descend, vertically, except in ground effect because of the ring-vortex effect, ie descending into your own down draft.
Grüss Got.
PS Rotor collective pitch changes instantaneously in response to the collective pitch lever, normally in the PIC’s left hand, at all times.
I think if the descent was sufficiently controlled that they impacted the roof at low speed, the additional 3.5m fall through the single story building would not have killed the 3 crew.
Tallbloke, you may well be right, BUT and this is the big but, they did not know what the roof was stressed for and it certainly did not have a big (H) in a circle with a number, the metric tons it was load bearing for, and the road was 10-15 m away, so they should not have picked the roof.
But as all these things, only the AIB forensics will tell us anything if it ever goes public, you of all people should know that your Police get very strange when embarrassed!
Lets leave it here, but what it is not is a pancake from height.
@Tallbloke; It sounds to me that the pilot was attempting to get the craft onto the ground as the transmission was failing and crashed as the box locked up. Too bad, he almost made it. I doubt he was deliberately landing on the pub roof. Sometimes crap happens. 😦 pg
I really did not want to go further into this but your comment cannot go unchallenged. We have been building jet helicopters for over 30 years, and it seems that even on this tech blog people will not understand anything about mechanical design. The drive train of a Eurocopter, which we know this was has a conventional dual turbine drive train, both turbines drive the Gearbox input gear, and this, through a centrifugal clutch drives the rest of the box, if the power dies, the clutch falls out leaving the gearbox and swash plate free so that a seized turbine cannot kill the drive train.mechanical fuse disconnects the seized turbine. At the output of the gearbox, a one way clutch allows the rotor head to over speed the drive, and this is just below the swash plate precisely to prevent the scenario you propose, ie the box jamming the rotor.
Now look at the picture and the Eurocopter blade-head design, and the DT film as the body was craned out, that tells you everything you need to know. I just care that there is not another whitewash and pilots stop thinking it is safe to land on flat roofs.
Special Forces pilots, who do this know to keep the load on the rotors, and not exceed 60 kg on an unmarked roof
ombzhch says:
December 4, 2013 at 5:49 am
We shall see what the inquire determines. I would find it hard to believe a person intelligent enough to be a professional helo pilot would be dumb enough to deliberately land on a pub roof, and at night! I suspect “Murphy” rules here. pg
Hi PG. I agree with you. Wind is unpredictable in urban canyons too.
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