Greek voters reject terms

Posted: July 5, 2015 by tchannon in Politics

The game play continues

Greek voters overwhelmingly reject bailout terms

With 70 percent of votes counted, results show Greeks rejecting terms of international bailout by 61 to 39 percent.

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2015/07/early-results-shows-campaign-leads-greek-vote-150705162957783.html

Assuming this is correct some realities come closer.

Greece is in a mess, has been in a mess for many years. Small country, lots of regional problems. In my view the lenders who are complaining were grown up, knew the real situation and ignored it.

I can see a mountain of unspeakables, distortions around the world, unexplained oddities. We are not told the half.

Second guessing now? Popcorn time.

Post by Tim

Comments
  1. oldbrew says:

    Greek people are supposed to pay for the blunders of the ‘too big to fail’ banks? Doesn’t work for me.

    The Irish were conned into it, but the Greeks have had enough of that game or so it seems.

    ‘Greece owes a lot of money to a lot of people. Check out who loaned the money.’
    http://demonocracy.info/infographics/eu/debt_greek/debt_greek.html

  2. tchannon says:

    Quite often I listen to RTE, Irish radio off-air on lf, at least when I feel able to on-off, infested with advertisements now. Reading between the lines the people went through a lot, is still not right. Too pro EU for it’s own good.
    History, Ireland ought to be close to England today, so many reasons why, was right royally messed up years ago.

  3. Ron Clutz says:

    I can see into the future, and here it is:

  4. Fanakapan says:

    tchannon,

    Overall the Irish did well from EU membership, it released them from the thrall of the British, who were happy to ponce off Ireland safe in the knowledge that the Irish had little choice.

    The comparison between Ireland today, and as it was prior to EU membership is immense.

    It would also be as well to remember that Ireland’s financial woes were largely a result of the efforts of its own people. Or more precisely those of the ilk that are mentioned in the old joke ‘What do you call a Northsider in a limousine ? The Taoiseach🙂

  5. […] At Tallblokes,a commenter has an interesting POV on things: […]

  6. tchannon says:

    Early stock markets have moved,Euro has dropped, EU honchos are making the doom noises but nothing is face value, Greeks are celebrating, some that is, won’t last, etc.

    A wildcard is China in panic trying to stop an unrelated stock market crash.

    Expect anything unexpected. USA wins soccer world cup.

  7. M Simon says:

    Start of the second phase of the Great Recession – officially September. Actually? Already in progress.

  8. M Simon says:

    Time is not on our side.

  9. p.g.sharrow says:

    The Greek Socialists still believe they can live the good life on OPM. A vote to keep the party running does not make it so. I don’t think the Germans will continue to finance this. pg

  10. tchannon says:

    I don’t recall that MS but I watch lots of things.

    Russia incidentally turned off gas to Ukraine 1st July. No up front money no gas. Comment, come winter the tune changes. It is the silly season.

  11. p.g.sharrow says:

    @M Simon; I fear you are correct.

    Prophecies are, that this will get so bad the “Philosophy of Moore” will be discredited for all time.

    Liberal Progressive/Communist political thought are based on the teachings of Thomas Moore. Time for this cancerous experiment by the Educated Elite on humanity to be over. pg

  12. gallopingcamel says:

    Fanakapan, July 5, 2015 at 11:58 pm,

    I usually agree with Tim Channon so it pains me to agree with you.

    I lived in Belfast from 1966 to 1976 building factories in Ulster and the RoI (Republic of Ireland).

    Back then it was obvious that the RoI strategy for encouraging industries via tax incentives was vastly superior to Ulster “Targeted Incentives that were dictated by the UK government.

    Incentives to attract companies to a given jurisdiction depend on bribery. Targeted incentives require jurisdictions to make up front payments to bribe companies to relocate. This requires the creation of ‘Slush Funds” under the control of politicians making corruption and scandals inevitable.

    Tax incentives on the other hand bribe companies with their own money so tax payers don’t have to put money on the table and politicians can’t direct funds to the people who contributed to their campaigns. This approach created the “Celtic Tiger”.

    Sadly, even when you get your industrial incentives right it can’t overcome the problems caused by a banking system that goes beserk as in Ireland, Japan and several other countries.

  13. gallopingcamel says: July 6, 2015 at 7:07 am

    Sadly, even when you get your industrial incentives right it can’t overcome the problems caused by a banking system that goes beserk as in Ireland, Japan and several other countries.

    Indeed! We are all doomed! OTOH it has always been so! Why not kick back and enjoy it? I enjoy carefully sharpening pitchforks. There may be an opportunity on the way to doom!

  14. Tim, I posted elsewhere that I was recently in China. In the cities there were cranes on unfinished buildings as far as the eye could see but none working. Also, stopped was work on an underground in a large city (33M) and other infrastructure elsewhere. I only saw one concrete truck in three weeks. I think the true Chinese GDP growth this year will be close to zero (not 7% as predicted). I suggested that was due to the Government pulling the financial plug for a number of reasons a) to let some entrepreneurs go broke b) catch out some corruption c) hurt USA and Obama d) take some support away from the EU. However, the feeling is that the government can turn on the tap when they want and it may be soon before that rubbish climate conference which it is likely they will boycott. One thing I felt was clear that there is no turning back for China. They have made a huge leap forward and the people will put pressure to keep it going. I was surprised that nearly everyone in the street was clutching or talking into a mobile phone. Free Wifi was available in a large number of places (although Google and some overseas sites blocked particularly at the airports). All the cars i saw were relatively new with an overwhelming majority of SUV’s particularly Mercedes, BMW and Volkswagen (all made in China) I saw some coal power stations and one new power station which could be Nuclear in the distance. The 3 Gorges dam is impressive 32 units of hydro with a total capacity of 22,000MW, The first few units came from US, Europe and japan but most built and designed in China.

  15. oldbrew says:

    Farage puts the boot in…

  16. For the sake of ordinary people in Greece I hope they leave the Euro as quickly and as smoothly as possible. Greece will then quickly devalue its currency, this will depress wages and quickly make Greece an attractive place to do all kinds of business from tourism, to new factories.

    And the only reason I can see this not going ahead smoothly, is that the Eutopians don’t want other countries that joined the Eutopian superstate to see how much better they will be off outside it.

  17. Richard111 says:

    On the French news some EU official said the wrong question was asked for the referendum. They must do it again.

  18. oldbrew says:

    At 6:15pm tonight UK time: ‘#Merkel & @fhollande to make joint statement on #Greece ‘

  19. oldbrew says:

    Varoufakis on bailout merchants…

    From: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/economics/11720448/Yanis-Varoufakis-resigns-Greeces-finance-minister-in-his-own-words.html

  20. A C Osborn says:

    One thing that I have not seen mentioned on TV or in the MM is the fact that Greece is a “Potentially” rich nation. It has a great deal of Gas ($600Billion) & Oil just off it’s coastline, the value of which dwarfs it’s current debt. It should have started exploiting it last year,especially as the EU desperately needs it to reduce it’s reliance on Russia.

  21. J Martin says:

    Greece should not have been allowed to join the Euro in the first place, given that so much of its economy functions on bribes and tax avoidance, and then there is its absurdly generous social security, and its ludicrously overpaid bureaucrats. Until all these structural practises have been eliminated it should not be allowed to join any sort of economic union. Europe is Better off without Greece.

    The EU is as much to blame for this as Greece. They knew all about its unsustainable economic practises before they allowed Greece to join.

    The Greeks have voted voted to continue their back handers to bureaucrats, their tax avoidance, their social security largesse, their right to allow anyone with a state job to be disproportionately rewarded.

    Greece has voted to be a continuing joke, failure and economic basket case. Well done Greece.

    Though to be a tad more balanced. Under the initial terms the Greek economy had begun to grow giving the prospect of being able to pay back the debts. Under the toughened terms the Greek economy stagnated making debt repayment impossible. The EU should review what happened there.

    Nonetheless I feel that Greece has far too many unaddressed structural problems and should leave the Euro.

  22. Fanakapan says:

    Whilst there’s no doubt that the EU finds itself at a fork in the road that has the potential to seriously hobble its ambition to evolve gradually into a United Europe, I cant but help thinking that Mr Farage is premature with his diagnosis.

    If one substitutes say, California for Greece, and the USA for the EU, and what would happen if/when California hits the buffers. Then one can see the only possible course that the EU can take if it wants to strengthen itself. Clearly in the case of California, there’s no way that the USA would cut it loose no matter how big a calamity it creates for itself. The EU needs to adopt the same approach towards Greece, if it does not, its safe to assume it will have knocked itself back at least 20 years.

    It may also be wise to not adopt a myopic view of the Greek situation. The fact is that pretty much the entire western world is beset by debt that is largely unpayable. And in the absence of any realistic plan to reduce debt levels, bar taking the road back to Wigan Pier, the Greek situation is but the most obvious symptom of a malady that is not responding to the current treatments.

  23. oldbrew says:

    Fanakapan says: ‘If one substitutes say, California for Greece, and the USA for the EU, and what would happen if/when California hits the buffers.’

    California already ‘hit the buffers’ at least once: ‘Coffers Empty, California Pays With I.O.U.’s’
    http://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/03/us/03calif.html

    In Europe many of the banks that are owed billions by Greece are already technically bankrupt, so Greece defaulting would be another millstone round their necks.

  24. Tenuc says:

    The way I see it Alexis Tsipras new that an exit from the Euro and possibly the EU was inevitable even before he got into office. The referendum result will help smooth the way.

    The Greek people have let loose the first stone from their sling-shot and, from the reaction of the EU bureaucrats so far, scored a direct hit. This has dazed the EU badly and this incompetent organization is now stumbling blindly around.

    I think that one more wrong move from this struggling Goliath will cause the trip which will bring the whole corrupt edifice down. The people of Greece are not the only members of this undemocratic organization who have had enough and we will join in with what will become a bloody fight to restore sovereignty and freedom to countries in Europe.

    I’m hoping to be dancing on the EU’s grave very soon.

  25. M Simon says:

    The trouble is that the Euro was seen as a political union when it was actually an economic union.

    It the US those are two different things. A State can go bankrupt and still remain in the Union. In fact bankruptcy doesn’t change its political status. That eliminates a raft of moral hazards.

  26. oldbrew says:

    Tsipras and co. have nothing much left to lose by trying to screw every last concession out of EU leaders, before they finally get kicked out of the bailout system. They will just go on delaying the inevitable as long as they’re allowed to get away with it.

    William Hague: Greece is just the start of the EU’s euro troubles…
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/greece/11721838/Greece-does-not-mark-the-end-of-the-euro-debacle-merely-the-beginning.html

  27. Fanakapan says:

    I had to chuckle today upon seeing the Luxembourg and Latvian representatives at the talks adopting a haughty attitude🙂

    The one state facilitated Massive tax evasion within the EU, and the other was demanding assistance to demonstrate EU and NATO solidarity to Putin.

    Being pro EU, I have to say I am bewildered how these people dont seem to be able to see the bigger picture as it applies to their political hopes for the EU.

  28. oldbrew says:

  29. oldbrew says:

    Going, going…

    ‘Merkel says trust lost at last-ditch Greece talks.
    Planned summit of EU leaders called off to avert Grexit as Tsipras insists a deal can still be reached.’
    http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2015/07/merkel-trust-lost-greece-talks-150712144323368.html