What would happen if Mars and Venus swapped places?

Posted: November 4, 2018 by oldbrew in atmosphere, Temperature

Credit: intergalactic-hq.com

ASTROBIOLOGY NASA picked this article from the Many Worlds website, and by doing so endorsed the writer’s apparent belief in ‘heat-trapping gases’. But the “thought experiment” the science meeting was engaging in did not seem to include any reference to Nikolov and Zeller’s Universal Theory of Climate, which could have helped them out considerably.

What would happen if you switched the orbits of Mars and Venus? Would our solar system have more habitable worlds?

It was a question raised at the “Comparative Climatology of Terrestrial Planets III”; a meeting held in Houston at the end of August, writes Elizabeth Tasker.

It brought together scientists from disciplines that included astronomers, climate science, geophysics and biology to build a picture of what affects the environment on rocky worlds in our solar system and far beyond.

The question regarding Venus and Mars was proposed as a gedankenexperiment or “thought experiment”; a favorite of Albert Einstein to conceptually understand a topic. Dropping such a problem before the interdisciplinary group in Houston was meat before lions: the elements of this question were about to be ripped apart.

The Earth’s orbit is sandwiched between that of Venus and Mars, with Venus orbiting closer to the sun and Mars orbiting further out. While both our neighbors are rocky worlds, neither are top picks for holiday destinations.

Mars has a mass of just one-tenth that of Earth, with a thin atmosphere that is being stripped by the solar wind; a stream of high energy particles that flows from the sun. Without a significant blanket of gases to trap heat, temperatures on the Martian surface average at -80°F (-60°C).

Notably, Mars orbits within the boundaries of the classical habitable zone (where an Earth-like planet could maintain surface water) but the tiny planet is not able to regulate its temperature as well as the Earth might in the same location.

Unlike Mars, Venus has nearly the same mass as the Earth. However, the planet is suffocated by a thick atmosphere consisting principally of carbon dioxide. The heat-trapping abilities of these gases soar surface temperatures to above a lead-melting 860°F (460°C).

But what if we could switch the orbits of these planets to put Mars on a warmer path and Venus on a cooler one? Would we find that we were no longer the only habitable world in the solar system?

“Modern Mars at Venus’s orbit would be fairly toasty by Earth standards,” suggests Chris Colose, a climate scientist based at the NASA Goddard Institute for Space Studies and who proposed the topic for discussion.

Dragging the current Mars into Venus’s orbit would increase the amount of sunlight hitting the red planet. As the thin atmosphere does little to affect the surface temperature, average conditions should rise to about 90°F (32°C), similar to the Earth’s tropics. However, Mars’s thin atmosphere continues to present a problem.

Colose noted that without a thicker atmosphere or ocean, heat would not be transported efficiently around Mars. This would lead to extreme seasons and temperature gradients between the day and night. Mars’s thin atmosphere produces a surface pressure of just 6 millibars, compared to 1 bar on Earth. At such low pressures, the boiling point of water plummets to leave all pure surface water frozen or vaporized.

Mars does have have ice caps consisting of frozen carbon dioxide, with more of the greenhouse gas sunk into the soils. A brief glimmer of hope for the small world arose in the discussion with the suggestion these would be released at the higher temperatures in Venus’s orbit, providing Mars with a thicker atmosphere.

Continued here.

  1. oldbrew says:

    Mars: Without a significant blanket of gases to trap heat

    Aka the atmosphere.

    Venus: a thick atmosphere consisting principally of carbon dioxide. The heat-trapping abilities of these gases…

    ‘these gases’ = the atmosphere.

    Mars thin = low surface pressure , Venus thick = high surface pressure.
    Temperature and pressure are correlated.

    Standard Atmosphere

  2. JB says:

    The fact that Venus’ inertia is >33x that of Mars should indicate something to these pedantic theorists. Having a firm grasp of why those planets are where they are,and composed of what they are should reveal the futility of the idea. There’s much more to the conditions for supporting life than being in the “zone.”

  3. ivan says:

    It is not surprising that NASA picked this up since James Hansen, the father of the lie about CO2, has close ties to NASA Goddard and anything to keep the money train running is essential.

    They will never include any reference to Nikolov and Zeller’s Universal Theory of Climate because that does not fit with their and the UNs objectives.

  4. oldbrew says:

    Moving Venus to where Mars now is…

    Mars: Solar irradiance (W/m2) = 586.2 (Earth = 1361)

    Temperature at 1 bar of a body with a ‘proper’ atmosphere at the same distance from the Sun (i.e. in place of Mars) should be somewhere near:
    4th root of (586.2 / 1361) * 288°K = 233°K [-40°C]
    Update – that’s for Earth, now the same calc. for Venus:
    4th root of (586.2 / 2601.3) * 737°K = 508°K [235°C]

    Then it’s a matter of knowing the ‘new’ surface pressure on Venus given the same atmospheric properties as at present. Gravity falls off by the inverse square (e.g. at twice the distance from the Sun gravity would be 1/4 as strong), so pressure should be proportionally reduced, which would also lower the temp. estimate.


    Atmospheric composition is not part of the calculations.

    Update: Provisional result = 53°C at the surface for Venus at the distance of Mars. However this could well be wrong 🙂

  5. tom0mason says:

    The adverts just wouldn’t sound right!

    ‘A Venus a day helps you work, rest , and play. ‘ No not good …
    🙂 😁

  6. Stephen Richards says:

    Chris Colose

  7. oldbrew says:

    Venus: Chris Colose vs Steve Goddard – by Lubos Motl

    The lower portions of the atmosphere are only heated adiabatically, by convection, as the circulating gas warms up as it drops down and gets compressed, and by heat conduction.

    – – –
    @ Tom

  8. tom0mason says:

    😀 🤣 🤣 🤣

  9. Damian says:

    article: “(where an Earth-like planet could maintain surface water)”

    Any Planet forming in the “goldilocks zone” would have no water as it would burn off during the formation process.
    This is fixed by having comets deliver the water later….but we have been unable to detect water on any comet.

  10. Damian says:

    The Nebular Hypothesis is the cornerstone of all Astrophysical theories about our Solar System, from this comes the idea that planets go through some sort of a lifecycle where they would once have been Earthlike. the predictions about Venus formulated from this theory were completely wrong but the heretic Velikovsky was (more) correct, the Runaway Greenhouse hypothesis was invented, ad hoc to explain why they were wrong.
    There is no evidence that Venus or Mars were ever Earthlike, it is a quasi religious idea that planets only exist to be habitable for Humans. It is the ultimate hubris.

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