London hybrid double-decker [image credit: buses world news]
Scary. Best wear running shoes when using vehicles powered wholly or partly by lithium batteries (full details not yet reported). — Update: the bus manufacturer is Switch.
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A bus has dramatically caught fire on Wimbledon high street this morning, with residents reporting a loud bang and thick smoke.
Videos and photos showed clouds of smoke billowing from a red double-decker bus on Wimbledon Hill Road and Alwyne Road. ‘We heard a huge bang. We were terrified’ Max Pashley, a local resident, told City AM.
There have been no reported injuries, according to the Met, while road closures and cordons are expected to remain in place for some time. “We thank the local community for their patience and cooperation as emergency services work at the scene,” a spokesperson said.
The London Fire Brigade was at the scene at Alwyne Road, not far from the Alexandra pub, after being called at 7:21am, while the Met Police were contacted at 7:23am. A 25 metre cordon was put in place around the incident and road users are still being diverted away from the area.
There was congestion to Wimbledon Hill Road, which was partially blocked, and to Wimbledon Village southbound and the Broadway northbound.
Merton Police issued a statement advising drivers to “avoid the area of Wimbledon Hill Road this morning. There will be congestion as the road is blocked off in both north and southbound directions. Please avoid the area of Wimbledon Hill Road this morning.
A spokesperson for the London Fire Brigade said they were still unsure of the exact cause of the fire.
Full report here.
Tallbloke's Talkshop 
Opening up new Horizons, then, eh?
Looks a mess…
The way these batteries react to rough usage, be it a big bump or charging problems indicates that they are not ready for prime time use. With examples like this is it any wonder that people don’t want BEVs – who in their right mind would ride around in something that could incinerate you in an accident?
https://www.prosol.co.uk/motor-trade-articles/hydrofluoric-acid-the-chemical-hazard-hiding-in-electric-and-hybrid-vehicle-batteries/
Switch buses use NMC batteries.
‘There is a particular interest in optimizing NMC for electric vehicle applications because of the material’s high energy density and operating voltage.’
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium_nickel_manganese_cobalt_oxides
Bear in mind the difference in energy density by weight between diesel and the best current battery technology is around two orders of magnitude:
Diesel: 44.8MJ/kg, lithium-ion battery: 0.46-0.72MJ/kg.
That means for the same distance a battery weighs 44.8 / 0.72 = 67.8 times as much as a tank of diesel.
That’s before taking into account that a diesel tank run full to empty weighs on average half its weight when full and a battery weighs the same charged or flat.
All the improved battery technology in the known universe isn’t going to compensate for that.
catweazle666 says:
January 11, 2024 at 11:07 pm
Bear in mind the difference in energy density by weight between diesel and the best current battery technology is around two orders of magnitude:
Diesel: 44.8MJ/kg, lithium-ion battery: 0.46-0.72MJ/kg.
That means for the same distance a battery weighs 44.8 / 0.72 = 67.8 times as much as a tank of diesel.
That’s before taking into account that a diesel tank run full to empty weighs on average half its weight when full and a battery weighs the same charged or flat.
All the improved battery technology in the known universe isn’t going to compensate for that.
I concur. Even a ‘Lithium-Metal Hydride’ battery can’t produce the ‘energy density’ that a ‘diesel engine’ powered vehicle can provide. However, ‘battery technology’ needs to progress on the ‘safety scale’ before this technology can be accepted by the general public without the full acceptance of its safety in usage.
Kind regards, Ray Dart (AKA suricat).
How many buses have TfL lost to battery fires so far?
Thanks for that oldbrew, but let’s forget ‘diesel powered vehicles’, or even ‘petrol powered vehicles’, which ‘both’ produce toxins harmful to ourselves and our atmosphere. I see no reason why ‘liquified natural gas’ shouldn’t be a good substitute for any of the afore mentioned ‘derivatives’ to power our vehicles. Let alone ‘exploding batteries’.
‘Natural Gas’ (C H4) is the (best?) nearest alternative to a ‘hydrogen’ (H2) power system that doesn’t ‘leak’ from its containers (the carbon atom within the molecule prevents this) and generates the ‘least carbon dioxide’ into the atmosphere for any combustible/propulsion fuel.
Your thoughts?
Kind regards, Ray Dart (AKA suricat).
UK natural gas transport in the past…
With motor fuel in short supply, wartime UK turned to gas as an alternative
May 10 2020
https://cadentgas.com/news-media/news/may-2020/wartime-uk-turned-to-gas-as-an-alternative
A few filling stations do offer LPG but seems to be on the decline.
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The big EV push isn’t going too well…
Hertz to Sell 20,000 of Its Electric Vehicles, Offers Discounts on Teslas
11 Jan 2024
In a blow to the EV market, the rental car company is selling the electric cars to reinvest the money in buying gas vehicles.
https://uk.pcmag.com/cars-auto/150459/hertz-to-sell-20000-of-its-electric-vehicles-offers-discounts-on-teslas
LPG really never took off, it was a fatally flawed fuel both from the financial and safety viewpoints. Very few petrol stations keep it these days, it is mainly stored and used by large companies which use local delivery vehicles and industrial plant such as fork lift trucks.
I understand there is a huge world surplus of LPG, it is a by-product of crude oil extraction and normally provides the ‘push’ to get oil up to the surface, so has to be stored somewhere – usually tankers bobbing about on the water unused!
The UK government had a half-hearted attempt to promote LPG about 30-40 years ago by subsidising fitment of LPG tackle to cars and other vehicles, and having a lower rate of fuel duty. Just when LPG sparked public interest, they withdrew subsidies and petrol stations (realising compounds for storage tanks and regulations were all onerous liabilities) threw them out.
The stuff was bad to handle and leaks were very common. The equipment fitted to vehicles was never properly proven by testing, so many vehicles were subject to breakdown (regularly) and accordingly hated by drivers who also found LPG consumption was high and power was reduced. Failures of the equipment were compounded by engine mechanical problems.
The worst part was a built-in stench which was supposed to alert people to leaks. However the gas was heavier than air and any leak would insidiously collect in any hollow, such that dropped cigarette-ends would cause a flash-fire. Vehicles using LPG were not allowed on ferries, trains etc because of the volatility of LPG.
The one good point of LPG, was that in ICE engines it burned clean-ish and periods between de-cokes were extended. However, in the ensuing 40 years, ICE fuels have been refined and additional filters used are now wonderful in creating very clean exhausts.
In fact darteck, the exhaust of modern diesels fitted with urea catalyst NOx reduction (eg Bluetec) and exhaust particulate filters is cleaner and less toxic than the air inducted into the engines, and all the pm2.5 produced by tyre, brake and road surface wear is removed before combustion by the air filters.
Petrol emissions have been negligible for some time due to improved fuels and catalytic converters.
Tyre and road wear 2.5ppm caused by EVs is considerably than ICEs due th their greatly increased weight and high starting torque.
However, it is notable that there are at least two companies in the profitably extracting the platinum and other rare earths from road dirt, I haven’t seen ay studies of the inhalation of inhaled finely divided highly catalytically active microparticles…
Cat, being engineers I suppose we agree a lot about technology. The emissions of diesel engines has been exaggerated by Greens in Europe. NOx comes about from combustion of fuels with air. NOx is created more with high temperature. Hydrogen, LNG, LPG & petrol burn at higher temperature than diesel. Big industrial diesel engines eg greater than 300kW engines for power generation give off practically no NOx. At the back end of preheater and precalciner cement kilns (1200C) fuel injection running close to zero excess oxygen knocks out the NOx. If NG is used at the front of the kiln (over 3000C) then urea may need to injected at the back end. NG burns at higher temperature than coal which is the ideal fuel for a cement kiln (NG has more gas volume, emits more dust, is less efficient due to low flame emissivity). Soot from combustion of diesel and kero (jet planes) can be overcome by operating at a proper temperature and a tiny amount of water injection. I had an old Bedford diesel horse truck (the 3 daughters had horses). This had a battery run glow plug to get temperatures up at start. Never had any black or even any colour smoke at the tail pipe. Union people in public transport are hopeless at maintenance.
Cat and cementafriend.
Oxides of nitrogen ‘NOx’, is/are produced, not only by temperature, but by pressure as well.
Surely an engine which operates at lower pressures and temperatures would reduce the need for any ‘exhaust’ filtration. Pollution from tire contact with the road is something else.
Would this be a ‘jet engine’ (about 60 percent efficient at roughly atmospheric pressure) with a ‘low energy density’ battery such as a ‘lead acid accumulator’ which offers a lower energy density (which is ‘safer’ when a ‘high rate discharge’ occurs) whilst the materials to make it are also more widely available?
Kind regards, Ray Dart (AKA suricat).
Diesels burn fuel at higher temperatures than other ICE engines, not lower. They rely on ultra-high compression pressure to start fuel burn.
Almost every modern road vehicle engine I’ve come across has a glow-plug system, usually one on each cylinder. This is to pre-heat the fuel so it ignites in the first few engine cycle, thus minimising emissions.
PSV’ are often poorly maintained not because of alleged “union” membership, but because they are kept in service over-age, there is nothing in the budget to afford expensive parts especially when a vehicle is close to end-of-life, e.g., a new engine or what?
“Diesels burn fuel at higher temperatures than other ICE engines, not lower. They rely on ultra-high compression pressure to start fuel burn.”
I concur mikewattam. High temperature, together with high pressure ‘confuses’ atoms and molecules to ‘recombine’ with atoms and molecules that they wouldn’t combine with ‘other’ atoms/molecules at ‘STP’ (Standard Temperature and Pressure). However, these combinations/re-combinations don’t happen at STP, so the scenario is actually ‘theoretical’, but verified by ‘observation’ of the process.
“Almost every modern road vehicle engine I’ve come across has a glow-plug system, usually one on each cylinder. This is to pre-heat the fuel so it ignites in the first few engine cycle, thus minimising emissions.”
I don’t understand this mikewattam. Surely a ‘glow-plug’ is only installed on/into a ‘diesel engine’ to ‘warm’ the ‘air intake’ so as to increase the ‘compression/compressed’ temperature of the ‘incoming air’ to a degree that the combustion of the ‘injected fuel’ can be effected/initialized.
“PSV’ are often poorly maintained not because of alleged “union” membership, but because they are kept in service over-age, there is nothing in the budget to afford expensive parts especially when a vehicle is close to end-of-life, e.g., a new engine or what?”
I concur, but my ‘remit’ here isn’t political!
Kind regards, Ray Dart (AKA suricat)
Third electric London bus catches fire in the space of two weeks – as operator launches probe and starts urgent check of 380 similar vehicles in its fleet
09:18, 25 Jan 2024
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13005001/london-bus-fire-panic-capital-flames.html
*Panic* says the Mail.
yesterday’s fire?
It is said that ONE is an occurrence, TWO – a coincidence, but THREE? … BRENDA! Sounds like the Aberdeen typhoid outbreak – so many from 1 tin … Huh the ” traitors” is no inspiration – just frustration with the Managerial System in cooperation with Government and the Greens.
The electric vehicle fiasco has become dangerous
Electric buses are bursting into flames. I’ll take my chances with diesel, thank you
ROSS CLARK
26 January 2024
Khan has promised to make all buses in London zero emission by 2037. But how is he going to get there when it looks as if he may well have to withdraw an entire fleet of 380 buses? If he doesn’t take these buses out of service, I fear he may find himself short of passengers willing to take the risk. Khan is a great one for ramping up public fear when it comes to air pollution. A better definition of a crisis, I think, is a sudden and acute problem – like spontaneously-combusting buses.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/01/26/the-electric-vehicle-fiasco-has-become-dangerous/